NVil Forum
General Category => Bug Reports => Topic started by: rubberDuck on September 12, 2013, 11:46:27 pm
-
After working on relatively complex scenes that include many different objects (think an interior scene, for example) I found that NVil has some serious difficulties with camera clipping in (although not limited to) orthographic views.
This makes selecting of vertex rows of long objects like walls, pipes, etc. a very big problem unless the selection is done in perspective view.
I wasted lots of hours (and now have two days of delay) trying to find a solution to the problem. I tried altering near/far clip planes or using "Best Fit", "Set View Focusing Point", "Selection Focusing" and "Camera Focus Point (SEL)". Nothing helps to get rid of this horrible clipping.
Also, Steve suggested to set camera clipping to 0.1/100, but it causes to back wireframes to pop out if the ortho viewport is zoomed out too much, so on the video below I reduced the far clip plane to 10 meters.
http://youtu.be/7H6Eq2U3p6o
The scene from the video is roughly 3.1 x 2.3 x 4.7 (XYZ) meters in size and the object visible is on the far end of the -Z axis.
Such clipping doesn't occur in other 3D programs unless I deliberately force it by adjusting clipping values or moving orthographic cameras.
http://youtu.be/5XotBAsdYzM
One solution to this problem I can think of is to use "physical" cameras for orthographic views. Cameras that are visible in the viewport, like in Maya for example. In this 3D package, if you move the ortho view, it translates in the world space. If you zoom in or out, it scales up or down (this one is a little bit misleading, because you can scale the camera's transform node without any effect to zoom. This is handy when scene scale is large and camera shape too small to be visible). You can manually translate it in perspective view wherever you want, so you can clip unnecessary geometry without even altering the clip attributes of the camera.
Please IStonia, do overhaul NVil cameras. In the current state, I find NVil to be almost completely unusable because of this issue.
P.S. Also, I've noticed that "Set View Focusing Point" doesn't always work. As you can see on the video, I hit the keybind that invokes this command, but nothing happens.
-
Can you send me the scene file and all your config files which are located at C:\Users\UserName\AppData\Roaming\DigitalFossils\NVil\User Settings. To info@digitalfossils.com.
-
Hello IStonia.
Of course, I'll send it ASAP. Thanks.
-
Mail sent.
-
Hello IStonia.
Did you perhaps found some time to take a look at the problem?
-
I have already got it done. The new update will be available in about a day.
-
Wonderful news IStonia! Thank you for fixing the issue in such short notice. I can't wait for the update. ;D
-
It should be better now.
-
Hi IStonia,
It should be better now.
I do not understand the direction you have taken with this.
If a fix to this problem had been simply a case of increasing the far clipping plane, then it would of been a lot easier to inform the user to increase the far clipping plane, or simply change the default from the current 100 to 1000 or even 10000. But that is not the case, as the problem is based around the ortho views.
A simple example:-
Create a simple box of 1x1x1. Change view_port layout to 2 views, making one of them "Front orthographic" and the other "Custom/Perspective"
(UI reduced in size for screen grabs)
(http://i.imgur.com/qSGPq3r.jpg)
Perform a (obj mode)"Best Fit All", which appears to be OK. Selecting(MMB window select) the corner vertex from the "Front ortho" view, does in fact select both front and back vertex as expected
(http://i.imgur.com/sgchT02.jpg)
Now, increase the size of the box to 100 on Z and again [obj mode)"Best Fit All"
This time, in the front ortho view, the object almost disappears into the distance.(I hid the manipulator, otherwise you would not see the object at all in the ortho view)
(http://i.imgur.com/7liFOPR.jpg)
So of course, to see and select sub_objects on the object in the ortho view, there is a need to zoom in. However, as you zoom in to get the object to a reasonable size the camera as made dolly into the object, so when you attempt to select the vertex, it will only select the back vertex.
(http://i.imgur.com/t4fStn2.jpg)
You can workaround that problem by selecting the front polygon and then zoom to fit, but should that really be needed?
If instead you use an added camera for the ortho view, you do not see that problem, as the camera will zoom the view rather than dolly the camera position.
.
-
Yes, I agree with Steve. The problem seems to be only halfway solved. While I can select distant components in orthographic views now, the near clipping still occurs. The more you zoom in the orthographic view, the more near clipping you get. It's almost like it isn't zoom at all, but camera dolly.
And what Steve said, there is already camera implementation present in NVil (Geometry->Create->Add Camera). If I add it to the scene, position it properly, scale it up to ensure that far clip plane encompasses the whole scene and set this camera to orthographic mode, I can zoom in or out without any clipping at all. This is how orthographic camera should work.
-
Hopefully the new update has fixed the problem.
-
I can still create an anomaly(when creating an ortho view inside an object.) But not (IMHO) enough of a problem to make further changes.
It does appear to fix the issue posted.
Many thanks for getting the new fix out so quick.
-
I did some quick tests too and indeed, the problem appears to be fixed now.
IStonia, I can't thank you enough for patching this up! :D
-
Thank you so much for looking into this. I've had loads of issues along the lines of those posted in this thread in the past. I create a lot of characters in the course of my work and I'm always creating small highly detailed objects being worn on a (relatively much larger) human-sized figure. Also, I work at 1:1 scale in millimeters, since most of my models are for 3d printing. For some reason, that combo has always given me grief with the clipping planes in Nvil as I was constantly have to refocus on individual polygons. I haven't used the 20Sep13 update yet, so I'm looking forward to seeing if it makes life easier. Will report if it doesn't. Cheers.
-
Same problem again. It's been a long time since I last experienced it. Turns out it didn't go away forever. 2014-Aug-02 version: :-\
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lhn2rumouo0imys/ortho_clipping_again.mp4?dl=1
-
Hi rubberDuck,
What settings do you have for your ortho view cameras?
Do you have "Edit > Preference > Options > Custom/front/back... view has own camera settings" enabled or disabled?
Do you have "Advance Focus Point on orthographic view zooming" enabled or disabled?
I do not see any issues with ortho camera now, I do use them a lot, but sometimes, depending on camera settings, they may need adjustment.
-
Hi rubberDuck,
Hello Steve. Thank you for replying so quickly. I appreciate it!
What settings do you have for your ortho view cameras?
Do you have "Edit > Preference > Options > Custom/front/back... view has own camera settings" enabled or disabled?
It's enabled.
Do you have "Advance Focus Point on orthographic view zooming" enabled or disabled?
This I had disabled. I enabled it and it seems to help. At least it looks like it after I did a few quick tests.
When was this option added to NVil anyway?
I do not see any issues with ortho camera now, I do use them a lot, but sometimes, depending on camera settings, they may need adjustment.
I didn't have any issues with clipping too. And like you, I use them a lot.
Only a few days ago those problems started to appear again. And today I got frustrated so much that I simply had to post here.
So, thank you for your time Steve. It looks like the "Advance focus..." option was the culprit.
-
Hi rubberDuck,
Do you have "Advance Focus Point on orthographic view zooming" enabled or disabled?
This I had disabled. I enabled it and it seems to help. At least it looks like it after I did a few quick tests.
When was this option added to NVil anyway?
The option was added in update Feb-21-2014 (http://voidworld.cmcproductions.co.uk/index.php/topic,2224.msg7004.html#msg7004). It is on by default, so you may of disabled it by accident/unintentionally at some time.
When the reports of problems was made about the ortho views, IStonia changed the behavior of the ortho cameras so that the view focus point would automatically advance so help prevent clipping. But that could stop all clipping in those views(which can be a problem when wanting to zoom inside an object, such as a building), but it also had a side effect on the "Create polygon" in ortho view, as zooming in/out also changed where the polygon was drawn. So IStonia added the option "Advance Focus Point on orthographic view zooming" so it could be disable and the old behavior used if preferred/required.
-
Hi rubberDuck,
Do you have "Advance Focus Point on orthographic view zooming" enabled or disabled?
This I had disabled. I enabled it and it seems to help. At least it looks like it after I did a few quick tests.
When was this option added to NVil anyway?
The option was added in update Feb-21-2014 (http://voidworld.cmcproductions.co.uk/index.php/topic,2224.msg7004.html#msg7004). It is on by default, so you may of disabled it by accident/unintentionally at some time.
When the reports of problems was made about the ortho views, IStonia changed the behavior of the ortho cameras so that the view focus point would automatically advance so help prevent clipping. But that could stop all clipping in those views(which can be a problem when wanting to zoom inside an object, such as a building), but it also had a side effect on the "Draw polygon" in ortho view, as zooming in/out also changed where the polygon was drawn. So IStonia added the option "Advance Focus Point on orthographic view zooming" so it could be disable and the old behavior used if preferred/required.
I wonder if this isn't an unnecessary complication. I think I once posted here a video clip that depicted how orthographic cameras are implemented in Maya. They're physical objects existing in the world space, each with a near and far clipping plane attributes.
Zooming in or out never affects clipping planes of Maya's ortho cameras.
Translating those cameras - yes, but what's the point of it? Unless of course the object is huge and stretches way back beyond the camera or the object is located far away from it, beyond the far clipping plane. In such cases you can always dolly the camera forward or back or, if it's the latter - increase the far clipping plane.
-
Hi rubberDuck,
The ortho view cameras can appear to be over complicated/confusing.
From your expectations of how you want them to work, I would suggest:-
Keep both "Edit > Preference > Options > Custom/front/back... view has own camera settings" and "Advance Focus Point on orthographic view zooming" enabled.(the ortho cameras will only zoom, not dolly forward/backward)
The only time you may see clipping is if you create or import a large object. If you do see clipping, temporarily disable "Advance Focus Point on orthographic view zooming" and zoom back until clipping gone, then re-enable that option.
-
I'll do that Steve. Thanks again. :)
-
You are welcome.
I use the ortho camera settings depending on what I am building. If the model is(for example) a building, where I want to view/work on the inside and outside, then I disable both those options. That way I can move the perspective camera imside the building, then hotkey to set ortho view from that camera position, zooming in/out moves the clipping plane, so I can also zoom in/out of the building in ortho view.
It was my questioning the implementation that made IStonia add the option "Advance Focus Point on orthographic view zooming" so I could revert back to how the ortho view worked before, so I could zoom in/out of objects. So my fault, and sorry for the added complication.
-
Sorry to drag up an old thread but clipping in Nvil is something that keeps plaguing me while modelling. This thread has been an interesting read.
I am seeking guidance on settings as I may be missing something that I need to set or have set wrong ?
I do most of my work in the Custom perspective/ortho view
I have Nvil set to metres
I generally work on models that are between 10 & 20 metres in size.
Some of the smaller components within the model are 0.01m in size which I need to zoom onto.
Custom Front/Back has own camera settings is checked in preferences.
Advance focus point on orthographic view zooming is on in the menus
Scene scale is set to 1
AutoScene scale is turned off
Retopo is not on (as I learned from another thread that affects visual settings)
My Clipping Settings are here
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w158/kevjon_2007/Posts/Clipping_zpsmfx12ciy.png) (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kevjon_2007/media/Posts/Clipping_zpsmfx12ciy.png.html)
I zoom in and out on the model all the time with ALT+RMB.
I also use Zoom Window command a lot and Zoom selected.
The clipping seems to get worse as the modelling session progresses.
I have to keep hitting "Best Fit All" to get rid of the clipping once it starts happening.
If anyone has any suggestions on things I could do or set differently, I would be most grateful.
-
Kevin, before I can answer your question, I need to know you understanding of clipping planes. Can you describe what they are and how do they affect the scene?
-
My understanding is that if I move my virtual camera closer than 0.1m or further out than 100 metres clipping will occur.
The only problem I have is I do not know if my virtual camera is moving closer or further than those parameters.
I could goggle it but am I close in my understanding ?
-
Yes, your under standing is right. But your understanding of the setting maybe wrong.
In the Auto Settings, 0.1 and 100 is scale values. For example, If the distance of camera focus point to camera is 50 meters, the near plane to camera will be 5 meters, the far plane to camera will be 5000 meters. In your settings, Advance focus point on orthographic view zooming is on, so when you zoom in your camera focus point is moving forward to maintain the distance of camera focus point to camera and this will move the camera focus point over to the other side of the model. I would suggest to turn off this option or reduce the far plane scale
-
Thanks Istonia
I'll experiment with those two suggestions and see if I can find the magic far plane scale number that work for me.
-
I wonder why you turn on this option, Advance focus point on orthographic view zooming. Do you know what it does?
-
Istonia
I do not have any idea what it does.
Having said that I do not have any idea what preference setting of "custom front/back has own camera settings" does either.
I think I had lots of clipping issues when I started learning Nvil and didn't find anything in the help file about how to solve it. I found this thread which suggested turning these things on. Which I did to see if it would help. Its probably been left on since.
-
I do not have any idea what it does.
It will keep the focus point at a set distance from camera. But if you use functions such as "Best Fit", "Selection Focusing" etc, it will change the focus point so will then change clipping.
Having said that I do not have any idea what preference setting of "custom front/back has own camera settings" does either.
By default there is one camera per viewport, the camera can be changed to front, back etc, but its position remains the same. If you enable "Custom front/back...." it will add a camera for each of the views for the viewports. It means when you change view, it changes to a new camera and its position will be the same as you left it when in that view previously.
I think I had lots of clipping issues when I started learning Nvil and didn't find anything in the help file about how to solve it. I found this thread which suggested turning these things on. Which I did to see if it would help. Its probably been left on since.
What is your expectation/needs of how the clipping should work. There are different ways to set it up.
-
When this option is on, both the camera and focus point will move forward when you zoom in. The only case I can think of using this option is there is something sitting between the camera and the area of interest so the area of interest is hidden behind. In this case, you keep zooming in until the area of interest is visible. Now you should disable this option. Then make a selection inside that area of interest then fire best fit command, alternatively activate the "Set View Focusing Point" and click at the area of interest, this will set camera focus point in that area of interest. Now you can zoom in to very close to the area of interest because the camera focus point will not move only the camera moves and the camera will never pass the focus point.
-
Hi IStonia,
I did ask at the time as to what the intention of the "Advanced Focus Point On Orthographic View Zooming" was for, as it did not work as I would expect. Looking at it now(I dont use it), it appears to give even more confusing results.
-
So have been taking a longer look at "Advanced Focus Point On Orthographic View Zooming". It is not working.
As explanation:-
I have simple scene(see pic) with 3 box of different colors. I have a viewport set to "Front View", so looking from Z+ to Z-. I select the gray box, and set focus point with "Focus selection". When I zoom in on front view, I cannot zoom past the gray box due to default settings (camera and focus point reach zero).
I zoom back out, and enable "Advance Focus Point on orthographic View Zooming". I zoom back in, and again I am stopped at the grey box, the focus point as not moved. I zoom out, and as I zoom out further, the far clipping plane moves away from camera and clips away the grey box, and as I zoom out further, the blue box is cliped so I see the red box.
Expectation.
"Advanced Focus Point On Orthographic View Zooming" enabled. I set focus point to grey box, in front view I zoom in, as I do, the focus point moves forward with camera, and the grey box is cliped showing the Blue box, and as I zoom further the blue box is cliped and I see the red box.
------------------------
I did a forum search and found a post where I asked about the implimentation, but I gave up.
So I will ask as to the intention of the option, with example of it working.
-
Steve & Istonia, thanks very much for the explanations about these two camera/viewport features. These are features I have not seen in other 3d software that I have used. Please keep the dialog going.
What is your expectation/needs of how the clipping should work. There are different ways to set it up.
While modelling I don't want to experience any clipping at all. I don't really ever find the need to zoom into the inside of object (for example inside a cube). If an object is obscuring my view I would hide it rather than use viewport clipping. Does my answer help with how to set it up ?
In Modo and 3DS Max I have rarely experienced clipping and don't recall there being any settings for clipping planes. I assume it is programmed to automatically adjust to the size of the objects that the user is modelling. In blender I have far and near clipping planes set as my post above and rarely experience clipping issues.
Now that I have turned off "Advance focus point on orthographic view zooming" and adjusted my far plane scale. give me a couple of days to try the new setup. I will report back further issues but if you have any tips you can pass on it would not only be really useful to me but to others as well.
-
steve, I modified the behavior of this option, please have a look.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-06-17.rar
-------
Sorry to drag up an old thread but clipping in Nvil is something that keeps plaguing me while modelling. This thread has been an interesting read.
I am seeking guidance on settings as I may be missing something that I need to set or have set wrong ?
I do most of my work in the Custom perspective/ortho view
I have Nvil set to metres
I generally work on models that are between 10 & 20 metres in size.
Some of the smaller components within the model are 0.01m in size which I need to zoom onto.
Custom Front/Back has own camera settings is checked in preferences.
Advance focus point on orthographic view zooming is on in the menus
Scene scale is set to 1
AutoScene scale is turned off
Retopo is not on (as I learned from another thread that affects visual settings)
My Clipping Settings are here
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w158/kevjon_2007/Posts/Clipping_zpsmfx12ciy.png) (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kevjon_2007/media/Posts/Clipping_zpsmfx12ciy.png.html)
I zoom in and out on the model all the time with ALT+RMB.
I also use Zoom Window command a lot and Zoom selected.
The clipping seems to get worse as the modelling session progresses.
I have to keep hitting "Best Fit All" to get rid of the clipping once it starts happening.
If anyone has any suggestions on things I could do or set differently, I would be most grateful.
kevin, since you have checked the "App auto set far plane base on scene geometry", you should not have problem on far plane clipping. If you have near plane clipping problem, you can either reduce near plane position value or its scale. Make sure your camera focus point is set at the right position.
-
Thanks for the help on this Istonia, I really want to get this solved once and for all.
I am not experiencing any far plane clipping at all no matter how far I zoom away from the model.
The problem I still have is with near plane clipping. It doesn't matter how small I set near plane scale 0.01 or 0.001 of a metre it still clips way to early when using Alt+RMB zoom. See attached image.
To get a sense of scale of the object I am zooming onto, the fuselage is about 7 metres long.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w158/kevjon_2007/Clipping%201_zpsrlpysdbq.png) (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kevjon_2007/media/Clipping%201_zpsrlpysdbq.png.html)
You mentioned "near plane position". Where do I find that ?
You mentioned "make sure your camera point is at the right position". How do I do that ? What function in the software controls it ?
-
You mentioned "near plane position". Where do I find that ?
It is the input field for "Near". You need to uncheck the "App auto set" option first.
If the value is tool small, you may have rendering problem in geometries far away from the camera. So set it as big as possible as long as the clipping is ok. You can get the best value from experiencing.
You mentioned "make sure your camera point is at the right position". How do I do that ? What function in the software controls it ?
I have described them in this post.
When this option is on, both the camera and focus point will move forward when you zoom in. The only case I can think of using this option is there is something sitting between the camera and the area of interest so the area of interest is hidden behind. In this case, you keep zooming in until the area of interest is visible. Now you should disable this option. Then make a selection inside that area of interest then fire best fit command, alternatively activate the "Set View Focusing Point" and click at the area of interest, this will set camera focus point in that area of interest. Now you can zoom in to very close to the area of interest because the camera focus point will not move only the camera moves and the camera will never pass the focus point.
-
Istonia
After another 1/2 hour of testing.
The image above is in Custom/Orthograhic view. That is when the near clipping occurs way to early.
If I change to Custom/Perspective the near clipping does not occur.
I generally don't work in Custom/Perspective as I find the distortion of the model to much to work effectively so prefer Custom/Orthographic for working on the 3d view of the model.
This is a bug ?
-
steve, I modified the behavior of this option, please have a look.
That is as I originally thought it had/should of been implimented. That is acting the same as a scene camara(Add Camera) while in ortho view
So why not go in a similar manner for zoom(in ortho) as the "Add Camera" and have no clipping at all?
So it would work as:- You are in ortho view, you can dolly in/out(using "Advance Focus point...", with clipping active), then once that option is disabled, you zoom in/out of current view (no clipping).
If you place a camera into scene for use as ortho view, that is how the camera works.
-
Istonia
After another 1/2 hour of testing.
The image above is in Custom/Orthograhic view. That is when the near clipping occurs way to early.
If I change to Custom/Perspective the near clipping does not occur.
I generally don't work in Custom/Perspective as I find the distortion of the model to much to work effectively so prefer Custom/Orthographic for working on the 3d view of the model.
This is a bug ?
It is unlikely a bug. For the same model image size in viewport, ortho and perspective viewport camera's distance to the object can be very different. so the clipping would not be the same.
Do you know how to set camera focus point yet? This is key thing to solve your clipping problem.
-
Hi IStonia,
Have a look at this simple scene..
Start Nvil and change to Four view. Load scene
The 2 views of interest are the "Custom Perspective" and the "Camera Orthographic"
The clipping for the "Camera Ortho" view is set with both auto off, Near 0.1; Far 25.0
In the "Camera ortho" view, zoom in/out. When zooming in, the camera will stop zooming with no clipping(Maz view), zoom out, and the objects are eventually clipped.
In the "Custom Perps" view, dolly(move) the camera along its Z axis(move toward the objects in scene). The zoom level remains constant, move the camera until you see (in the Camera ortho view) the gray box is clipped away. Now in "Camera ortho" view, zoom in/out. There is no clipping, the gray box does not reappear.
That is how I was expecting the ortho views to work, dolly(move camera in/out with clipping) / zoom(zoom in/out of view with no clipping).
-
It is unlikely a bug. For the same model image size in viewport, ortho and perspective viewport camera's distance to the object can be very different. so the clipping would not be the same.
Do you know how to set camera focus point yet? This is key thing to solve your clipping problem.
Massive thanks Istonia!
I assigned SHIFT+F to "Set View Focusing Point"
I pointed my cursor at the prop hub of the aircraft and fired Shift+F and now zooming in Custom/Ortho is working perfectly without the clipping issue.
Not only that I can now zoom into my normal Top, Front, Right ortho views to very fine detail without the clipping. If some does occur, I just have to point my cursor and fire Shift+F to fix it.
For me getting this solved is absolutely huge. So thanks again for this !
-
Hi IStonia,
Have a look at this simple scene..
Start Nvil and change to Four view. Load scene
The 2 views of interest are the "Custom Perspective" and the "Camera Orthographic"
The clipping for the "Camera Ortho" view is set with both auto off, Near 0.1; Far 25.0
In the "Camera ortho" view, zoom in/out. When zooming in, the camera will stop zooming with no clipping(Maz view), zoom out, and the objects are eventually clipped.
In the "Custom Perps" view, dolly(move) the camera along its Z axis(move toward the objects in scene). The zoom level remains constant, move the camera until you see (in the Camera ortho view) the gray box is clipped away. Now in "Camera ortho" view, zoom in/out. There is no clipping, the gray box does not reappear.
That is how I was expecting the ortho views to work, dolly(move camera in/out with clipping) / zoom(zoom in/out of view with no clipping).
I modified the code to mimic this behavior and I found it has a potential problem. If the near plane is set to auto, when zoom out to some extent, the near plane will start clipping.
-
I modified the code to mimic this behavior and I found it has a potential problem. If the near plane is set to auto, when zoom out to some extent, the near plane will start clipping.
In its current state, there are still issues.
What would be preferable, a need to disable auto, or a need to keep having to set focus point?
IMO, If you can prevent [ortho view] clipping with one change[disable auto], then that is best option.
-
Keep at Istonia, I hope you find a solution.
Zooming is something you are doing all the time, while it was a revelation that is what I had to do solve my clipping issues, I quickly found its not much fun having to set focus point before each and every zoom.
-
Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-07-17.rar
I use the "Auto set" option as the flag for which method will be used.
-
I use the "Auto set" option as the flag for which method will be used.
When in "Custom Perspective" not in auto, there is no [alt+RMB)zooming.
Maybe checking: IF "Auto set AND Orthographic view"?
-
Fixed
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-07-17.rar
-
Hi IStonia,
For my own usage, it is working great. (using Ortho on all views apart from custom)
For using "Custom Orthographic"(as Kevjon does) there is an issue when using zoom tools (such as "Window Zoom View" or "Best Fit"(on sub-objects)), as those tools are moving the camera(as if "Advance Focus....." was enabled), which can then cause clipping.
-
For using "Custom Orthographic"(as Kevjon does) there is an issue when using zoom tools (such as "Window Zoom View" or "Best Fit"(on sub-objects)), as those tools are moving the camera(as if "Advance Focus....." was enabled), which can then cause clipping.
So this is why I couldn't zoom in or out in orthographic views...
-
So this is why I couldn't zoom in or out in orthographic views...
I'm not experiencing any issue zooming in or out of ortho views.
I am having the same issue that Steve said with the latest test version.
Try best fit all on those views and see if it releases it.
-
Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-08-17.rar
For using "Custom Orthographic"(as Kevjon does) there is an issue when using zoom tools (such as "Window Zoom View" or "Best Fit"(on sub-objects)), as those tools are moving the camera(as if "Advance Focus....." was enabled), which can then cause clipping.
So this is why I couldn't zoom in or out in orthographic views...
The behavior for option "Advance Focus....." has been changed. If you don't understand, steve can explain.
-
So this is why I couldn't zoom in or out in orthographic views...
You probably have "Advanced Focus Point On Orthographic View Zooming"
To use orthographic views (front/back etc) for better control of clipping:-
To zoom ortho view
Disable "Clip Plane >> App Auto set" for ortho views.
Disable "Advanced Focus Point On Orthographic View Zooming"
When zooming (alt+RMB), there will be no near plane clipping.(The zoom will only be zooming between clip planes)
To move in/out/clip through objects in ortho view, enable "Advanced Focus Point On Orthographic View Zooming"
When you use alt+RMB to zoom, it will move the clip planes(it will not zoom the view), so you can(if required) clip through an object to see one behind it. Once view good, disable "Advanced Focus Point.....".
IMHO, this is better implimentation.
-
Thanks for the explanation, Steve. Ortho works great now, with no clipping!
I do however have a problem.
After disabling App Auto Set and Advance Focus..., now I don't seem to have any far clipping in perspective mode.
This leads to many performance and Z-depth issues and even Best Fit doesn't seem to help.
I work in single viewport only and toggle between perspective and orthographic modes with a composite tool that uses View Navigation Tools->Snap View (Orthographic) and View Navigation Tools->Custom View (Perspective)$. Alternatively, with View Navigation Tools->Perspective Orthographic View$.
-
After disabling App Auto Set and Advanced Focus..., now I don't seem to have any far clipping in perspective mode.
What setting do you have for far plane clipping?
Is "App auto set far plane base on scene geometry" set (what auto settings?)
If that option disabled, what manual setting for "Far" plane?
---------------------------
A possible issue that may arrise, is if you have near clip plane to manual, and far clip plane to auto, that is going to increase the clipping distance(between near/far) when zooming out.
--------------------------
At first I thought the custom-perp had broken clipping plane, because the floor grid was being clipped too early(while set to clipping "auto far"), but the object is not clipped.
-----
Sorry, been editing this post while testing, did not see below reply.
-
Here's a screenshot.
I'm using lower-right viewport.
-
Here's a screenshot.
I'm using lower-right viewport.
The lower right setting(for manual, which you have set) has too much of a distance between near/far.
Set near to 0.1, and far to 100, (or near 0.5 far 500, as example)
OR
Enable "App auto set far plane base on scene geometry" which will auto control far plane distance(you can keep auto settings as is)
-
I enabled the App auto set far plane based on scene geometry and set near/far distance to 0.01/10 (at scene scale equal to 1).
The result is on larger image.
Then I disabled all auto settings and set near/far distance to 0.01/100. Similar problems with wireframes of backfaces popping out (image with the cursor).
-
App auto set with 0.01/100 seems to work all right in perspective, but orthographic is "near-clipped" when I'm zooming in.
-
App auto set with 0.01/100 seems to work all right in perspective, but orthographic is "near-clipped" when I'm zooming in.
IStonia has set this up so that the ortho view(how it clips) is decided on if "App auto set" is enabled or not. If is is, the clipping in ortho view will be same as before.
I am not sure what is happening with custom-perp wiew + clipping planes when any of the auto are disabled, I will need to test more.
---------------------------------
If you are using composite tools to change view, could they not also change viewports?
-
If you are using composite tools to change view, could they not also change viewports?
I guess it could work for that composite tool, because it uses snapping to whatever plane is closest (top, bottom, left, right, front or back), but I also switch between perspective/orthographic with View Navigation Tools->Perspective Orthographic View$ from time to time, I would probably need to pass camera position and orientation of my main bottom-right viewport to an arbitrary viewport that I'd use as orthographic. I'm not sure if this is possible.
(BTW Steve, can you please remind me how to export a composite tool?)
-
Composite tools can currently only be exported from "Customize tool"
Edit >> Customize >> Tools >>>>> Composite tool. RMB on composite tool and select "export composite tool" from drop down menu.
-
I found by setting near to 0.1 is the sweet spot. If I go smaller I get mesh display issues, if I go larger I cannot zoom into small objects without clipping occurring to early.
Ideally (like Rubber Duck) I would like to go down to 0.01 but cannot at the moment due to mesh display issues.
Zooming to selection with best fit or zoom window in custom/ortho seems to work Ok now.
I am getting far plane issues now.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w158/kevjon_2007/Posts/Clipping%202_zpsdb2yqfa6.png) (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/kevjon_2007/media/Posts/Clipping%202_zpsdb2yqfa6.png.html)
I've also noticed when near plane clipping occurs best fit doesn't get rid of it anymore but using set focus point does.
-
Kevin, it is near plane clipping, not far plane. Base on the image provided, you camera is too close to the object. To fix
1. Enable "View > Advance Focus Point On Orthographic View Zooming".
2. Zoom out until no clipping.
3. Disable "View > Advance Focus Point On Orthographic View Zooming".
-
Ok, I'll give that a go next time it happens and it happens frequently.
I am finding that Best fit all or Set focus point does not always resolve the clipping once it occurs.
I think I could get used to working in perspective rather than custom / ortho, would that be a better option for me rather than having to interrupt the workflow by frequently having to toggle advance focus point, set focus point, best fit all ?
-
I think I could get used to working in perspective rather than custom / ortho, would that be a better option for me rather than having to interrupt the workflow by frequently having to toggle advance focus point, set focus point, best fit all ?
I don't think it will make much difference. When you rotate the view in custom view, the camera's position can be anywhere and it can be too close to or too far from the spot you want to see.
I would say, turn off the "Auto set for fixed ortho viewports, Front/Back... For custom view, there are 2 options.
1. Turn on the "Auto set". Control the camera position by setting its focus point.
2. Turn off the "Auto set". Control the camera position by zooming with "Advance Focus Point On Orthographic View Zooming".
As you can see, there is no once for all solution.
-
As you can see, there is no once for all solution.
No, but this thread has been incredibly educational for finding out how to deal with all the clipping issues.
Thanks for the tips on Option 1 and 2. Will try both out to see what works best for me.
Thanks to you and Steve for the help and advice :)
If you get time, it would be good to include your recommendations in the help file. It will assist new Nvil users a lot (in case they don't find this thread).
-
IStonia,
Would you be able to find some time to create commands(toggle) to:- App Auto Set viewport(*)$
(A command for each viewport, for use in composite tools)
So for example, if in viewport 1 and want to change from perp to ortho view, we can create composite tool to toggle perp/ortho, and also have it toggle the "App Auto set" for that viewport.
-
Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-09-17.rar
Edit > Customize > Tools > View Navigation Tools > P_SetClipPlanes.
-
Edit > Customize > Tools > View Navigation Tools > P_SetClipPlanes.
Working correctly. Thank you.
-
..............but I also switch between perspective/orthographic............
Hi rubberDuck,
Have attached example composite tool to toggle between "custom(perp)" and "Custom(ortho)".
Load composite tool, there are 3 composite tools, but only call "Toggle perp/ortho". It works in current/active viewport.
The composite tool will check to see if in custom view, if not (if in front/side etc) it will do nothing.
If current view is "Custom(perp)", it will change view to "Custom(ortho) and disable clipping "App Auto set" for that viewport.
If current view is "Custom(ortho), it will change to "Custom(perp) and enable clipping "App Auto set" for the viewport.
Note:-
After switching to "Custom(ortho)", there may be clipping due to camera position. If there is, enable "Advance focus...." and zoom out untill clipping gone, then disable "Advance focus...."
--------------------------------------------
Tool removed due to Nvil change.
-
Thank you Steve. The tool works perfectly, but I have noticed some problems with camera rotation.
When I switch to orthographic view using your tool, transform the viewport camera a bit, then use Best Fit to frame the selected object, sometimes the rotation pivot moves to what seems to be a random position. I captured this on a video. Standard built-in Perspective/Orthographic View does not show this behavior.
Do you have any suspicions as to why it happen?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5_r9d5SdkIvUUg0MkhpYmcyd2M
-
Do you have any suspicions as to why it happen?
Looks like incorrect camara focus.
Change "View > View Rotation Pivot Style" to "PointOfInterest(withSelection)";"Camera Focus Point(No Selection)"
Those are the settings I use by default, and did not see(when testing) the problems you show.
-
Looks like incorrect camara focus.
Change "View > View Rotation Pivot Style" to "PointOfInterest(withSelection)";"Camera Focus Point(No Selection)"
Those are the settings I use by default, and did not see(when testing) the problems you show.
Sadly it gets even worse with PointOfInterest (with Selection). I have no idea what the camera rotates around in this rotation pivot style. I can "move" the cube out of viewport's frame just by rotating around it. :-\
I'm accustomed to Camera Focus Point (with Selection)/Camera Focus Point (No Selection).
-
I do not actually use "Custom(Ortho)" view, so only testing. I am seeing some loss of focus, but only minor.
It is someting IStonia will need to look at.
-
I'm accustomed to Camera Focus Point (with Selection)/Camera Focus Point (No Selection).
I had a look.
While in "Custom(ortho)" with "App auto set" disabled (for clipping). When zooming in, the focus point is moving toward the camera, until eventually, the camera will spin(rotate) around its own axis. When zooming out, the focus point moves away from the camera. Tools such as "Best fit" or "Zoom Window" do not correct the focus point.
----------------------------
Certainly one for IStonia to look at when he has time.
-
Nice find, Steve!
-
Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-10-17.rar
-
I am not seeing the major issue reported. There may be minor issue, but not sure, as I go a little crossed eyed trying to work/test in custom(ortho), not a view I like.
rubberDuck will be better for testing fully.
-
Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-10-17.rar (http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-10-17.rar)
The only change that I have noticed in this build is that if I switch to orthographic mode with Steve's composite tool, then each Best Fit will take me closer and closer to the object (or focus point?). Then after several calls of Best Fit, I think the camera does what Steve says and strange things begin to happen, like this exception:
System.AggregateException: One or more errors occurred. ---> System.Runtime.InteropServices.ExternalException: A generic error occurred in GDI+.
at System.Drawing.Region.IsVisible(PointF point, Graphics g)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.Component.IsPolyUnderPoint(Region regionScr, Polygon poly, InstancePolygon iPoly, Single xIn, Single yIn, Boolean& interceptedByEdgeOrVertex, Vector3& rayIntersetPoint, Boolean& polyBoundingRectContainsPt)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.Component.<>c__DisplayClass44.<FindUnderScrPtPolys>b__3b(Tuple`2 range, ParallelLoopState loopState)
at System.Threading.Tasks.Parallel.<>c__DisplayClass42_0`2.<PartitionerForEachWorker>b__1()
at System.Threading.Tasks.Task.InnerInvokeWithArg(Task childTask)
at System.Threading.Tasks.Task.<>c__DisplayClass176_0.<ExecuteSelfReplicating>b__0(Object )
--- End of inner exception stack trace ---
at System.Threading.Tasks.Task.ThrowIfExceptional(Boolean includeTaskCanceledExceptions)
at System.Threading.Tasks.Task.Wait(Int32 millisecondsTimeout, CancellationToken cancellationToken)
at System.Threading.Tasks.Parallel.PartitionerForEachWorker[TSource,TLocal](Partitioner`1 source, ParallelOptions parallelOptions, Action`1 simpleBody, Action`2 bodyWithState, Action`3 bodyWithStateAndIndex, Func`4 bodyWithStateAndLocal, Func`5 bodyWithEverything, Func`1 localInit, Action`1 localFinally)
at System.Threading.Tasks.Parallel.ForEach[TSource](Partitioner`1 source, Action`2 body)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.Component.FindUnderScrPtPolys(Vector2 pt, ArrayList interceptedPolys, Boolean ignoreCulling, Boolean checkEdge, Edge& interceptedTopEdge)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.Util.GetRayInterceptPolys(Boolean dismissWirePolygonCondition, Single x, Single y, AbstractGraphicWindow graphicWindow, ArrayList characters, CharacterHolder exclusiveCharacter, Component hintComponent, Boolean freezedComponentBlocked, Boolean ignoreCharacterFreezeFlag, Boolean ignoreCulling, Boolean checkEdge, Boolean excludeTransparentWireMeshObjects, ArrayList& interceptedTopEdges)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.Util.GetScrRayObjectInterceptPoint(Boolean dismissWirePolygonCondition, Single x, Single y, AbstractGraphicWindow graphicWindow, ArrayList characters, CharacterHolder exclusiveCharacter, Component hintComponent, Boolean freezedComponentBlocked, Boolean ignoreCharacterFreezeFlag, Boolean excludeTransparentWireMeshObjects, Boolean ignoreEdgeLeak, Boolean canAddRetopoReferenceObjects, Vector3& intersectPt, Vector3& intersectNormal, Object& objPoly)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.ModelDesigner.CollectCharactersUnderPoint(Int32 ptX, Int32 ptY, ArrayList objects, Boolean excludeFrozenObjects, Boolean excludeRetopoReferenceObjects)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.ModelDesigner.StreamLineEngine.DetectObject(Single x, Single y)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.ModelDesigner.OnMouseDown(Object sender, MouseEventArgs e)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.AnimationDesignGraphicWindow.OnMouseDown(Object sender, MouseEventArgs e)
at DigitalFossil.AbstractGraphicWindow.CursorClerk.OnMouseDown(Object sender, MouseEventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.MouseEventHandler.Invoke(Object sender, MouseEventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.OnMouseDown(MouseEventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseDown(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)
---> (Inner Exception #0) System.Runtime.InteropServices.ExternalException (0x80004005): A generic error occurred in GDI+.
at System.Drawing.Region.IsVisible(PointF point, Graphics g)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.Component.IsPolyUnderPoint(Region regionScr, Polygon poly, InstancePolygon iPoly, Single xIn, Single yIn, Boolean& interceptedByEdgeOrVertex, Vector3& rayIntersetPoint, Boolean& polyBoundingRectContainsPt)
at DigitalFossil.AnimationDesign.Component.<>c__DisplayClass44.<FindUnderScrPtPolys>b__3b(Tuple`2 range, ParallelLoopState loopState)
at System.Threading.Tasks.Parallel.<>c__DisplayClass42_0`2.<PartitionerForEachWorker>b__1()
at System.Threading.Tasks.Task.InnerInvokeWithArg(Task childTask)
at System.Threading.Tasks.Task.<>c__DisplayClass176_0.<ExecuteSelfReplicating>b__0(Object )<---
-
I checked using "alt+RMB"(zoom); set focus; zoom window. The problem with moving focus point does appear to be fixed (well, not serious issue as before).
The "best fit" is a different issue.
-
The file renewed. Best fit bug is fixed.
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-10-17.rar
The change is, when "Auto set" is off in ortho view, camera and its focus point will not be changed in zooming. Compare to previous version, when change from perspective view to ortho view, the zooming will appear to be very different. There is no way this can be fixed unless changing camera or its focus point position when changing between perspe/orhto but that may cause other issues.
-----------
Sadly it gets even worse with PointOfInterest (with Selection). I have no idea what the camera rotates around in this rotation pivot style. I can "move" the cube out of viewport's frame just by rotating around it. :-\
In this style, when you start view rotation, the program will cast a ray from the cursor point. If the ray intersects with a face or line, the intersect point will be used as the camera rotation point so the area around that point will not be rotated out of view.
-
The file is renewed again
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-10-17.rar
-
Still having problems with Best Fit. If I use Steve's composite tool to switch to ortho, then zoom out some distance and run Best Fit, the selected object is framed, but when I rotate the camera, the object goes off the screen. Same situation like from the video (at around 0:42) that I linked up several posts ago.
I think I'll just stick to Auto Set only, with plain View Navigation Tools > Perspective/Orthographic View$ for toggling view modes. If I run into clipping in ortho view, I will temporarily enable Advance Focus Point (...) to tweak the focus point.
-
In Custom(ortho) view "App auto set" disabled. The "Best fit" is moving the camera, with focus point moving with camera to maintain original focus distance.
-
Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-11-17.rar
The ortho zoom behaviors is restored but two new options are added.
View > Orthographic View Zoom Options > "Camera Position Fixed"/"Camera Focus Both Fixed".
Steve, you need to modify your composite tools, the two options are not linked to "Auto Set" like previous version.
-
I'm really confused about these extra options. I do not know what to check or not check to minimise unwanted clipping issues in the viewport.
-
You should use "Camera Focus Both Fixed".
I don't see in any case the "Camera Position Fixed" can be useful. It can cause problem if viewport rotation uses camera focus as pivot. But I just leave it there for now just in case it can be used in some special cases.
-
You should use "Camera Focus Both Fixed".
So I should have that on when working in ortho views, custom ortho & custom perspective ?
or just when using any ortho views & custom ortho ?
-
The two options only works in ortho views. In perspective view zooming, focus point always fixed and the camera must move toward or away from the focus point.
If you come across any issue, fire the "Add Camera" command. Choose Yes to the dlg and the new camera will be in the position of the viewport camera with the same near and far plane settings. Then turn on this option, View > Display > Show Camera Range Line. Now you can navigate the viewport to see where the camera is and its near/far plane positions. You may be able to tell what causes the problem form what you see.
-
In perspective view zooming, focus point always fixed and the camera must move toward or away from the focus point.
So when I switch to perspective view I should uncheck any options in View >> Orthographic View zoom options ?
or
Do I need to check "Camera Position Fixed" ?
-
In perspective views, those options are not used/ignored so you don't have to do any thing.
You don't have to check "Camera Position Fixed" if "Camera Focus Both Fixed" is checked.
--------
I think It could be better to hide these two options from user and only keep "Camera Focus Both Fixed" is On.
-
In perspective views, those options are not used/ignored so you don't have to do any thing.
You don't have to check "Camera Position Fixed" if "Camera Focus Both Fixed" is checked.
Ok, thanks all clear.
I think It could be better to hide these two options from user and only keep "Camera Focus Both Fixed" is On.
Anything you can do to automate the whole clipping setup so it has the best configuration for most users needs would be preferable.
-
Hi Kevin, I just found out that the "Camera Focus Both Fixed" option didn't work at all in previous versions because of a coding mistake. Now it is fixed. Can you test it?
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-01-18.rar
My suggestion is
- Keep "Camera Focus Both Fixed" On if no culling occurred.
- If culling occurs.
- Method A:
Turn on "Move Both Camera and Focus" Option, so you can move the camera and its focus point both at the same time at zooming operation to find a position where culling can be eliminated.
- Method B: (Use this method only if method A failed or the distance between camera and its focus point is too long which causes z buffer fighting at rendering.)
Turn of both "Move Both Camera and Focus" and "Camera Focus Both Fixed" options. This way you can adjust the distance between camera and its focus point. Once culling gone, turn back on "Camera Focus Both Fixed" option.
-
Use this version
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Oct-02-18.rar
A new option is added.
* View > Display > Show Viewport Camera Info. Show active viewport camera's position, focus point and near/far clipping plane position in inactive viewport.