What I like & what I don't

I know I can use parsing to seperate them. What I mean I can't use '+' sign because it is a arithmetic operator. Anyway, this method doesn't seem intuitive. I just dismiss it.

I think the offset input is more usefull than the absolute input in rotation. If you type in y offset 45, the selection will be rotated around manipulator's y axis by 45 degrees no matter what the current manipulator's orientation is. If you try to click and drag the manipulator to do that you will never get the exact precision unless you use steppings.

Let's change the tranformation to move transforming. That may be easier to explain. Supporse I have an object selection and the current move manipulator's x axis is pointing halfway between world x and z axis. Now I want to move the object along the manipulator's x axis by 20.1 exactly. I just type in 20.1 into the offset x field. If I type in the absolute field instead, the object will move along world x axis and that's not what I want. Don't you think being able to move selection along the manipulator's axis by a precision amount is usefull? I wonder how you can achieve this in TrueSpace.

Let's change the tranformation to move transforming. That may be easier to explain. Supporse I have an object selection and the current move manipulator's x axis is pointing halfway between world x and z axis. Now I want to move the object along the manipulator's x axis by 20.1 exactly. I just type in 20.1 into the offset x field. If I type in the absolute field instead, the object will move along world x axis and that's not what I want.

Now i get it. Thanks for taking the time to explain it again and again until my old brain has accepted the data set

I wonder how you can achieve this in TrueSpace.

I simply can`t. At least not directly. trueSpace is incomplete here. And Blender too from what i can see. Interesting. That`s worth a request at the Blender Mailing list

Let's change the tranformation to move transforming. That may be easier to explain. Supporse I have an object selection and the current move manipulator's x axis is pointing halfway between world x and z axis. Now I want to move the object along the manipulator's x axis by 20.1 exactly. I just type in 20.1 into the offset x field. If I type in the absolute field instead, the object will move along world x axis and that's not what I want.

Now i get it. Thanks for taking the time to explain it again and again until my old brain has accepted the data set

Not really wanting to upset the "data set", but you can over-ride the absolute directions using a saved transform and setting the "Transform list-> Use as input space"

I was wrong when it comes to Blender. There is already a way, at least by hotkeys. G for Movement. Then the axis, let`s say X. To activate the local axis type in again a X. And then simply type in the value at the numpad

They don`t provide edit boxes for that though.

Not really wanting to upset the "data set", but you can over-ride the absolute directions using a saved transform and setting the "Transform list-> Use as input space"

*Tilt* Gimme a few days, i will surely understand this one too

I think this is getting out of hand. I will make a video in the next couple of days exploring the differences between Nvil and other applications when manipulating the transforms of an object in different spaces with the regular tools. Or put simple: I will move and rotate objects around in each application. I have an idea that Nvil will score well against Maya and Blender.
Yeah, I actually just discovered that I am eligible for a maya licence as a student. Somebody could have said so sooner. 

Oh, and in the mean time. This is how other applications handle the rotation. I think it's not much different: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc8b2Jo7mno
The audio and video are a bit desync.

Since we're not animating anything in NVIL, gimbal lock shouldn't be a problem.

Recently I installed Silo again to check something out in comparison to Nvil. It was then when I realized that by now Nvil has leapfrogged Silo by far in most areas! Aweseome work, IStonia.
Yet Silo still seems a bit more streamlined and less cluttered. I still have a hard time figuring out the differences of all the tools in Nvil, that somehow are made for the same task, but each does it a little bit different.

ya agree, i htink what happend was features are being added without redoing whole tools so existing configs and workflow dont get broken.

something that should be sorted out before a RC of final version.

i would also love to see two builds, a release version, that focuses on polishing existing features, bug crushing and performance, and a bleeding edge fork where new ideas and features are tried out.


i also do agree that it has surpassed silo, is actually more stable too, since i remember a few operations in silo that would crash it like 50% of the time.


the only bit i find really lacking atm is UV editing, which i dont mind too much since there is the clipboard feature so i can fire parts of models between maya and nvil quite quickly.

Yet Silo still seems a bit more streamlined and less cluttered. I still have a hard time figuring out the differences of all the tools in Nvil, that somehow are made for the same task, but each does it a little bit different.

Can you list examples? I don't know how to use Silo.

It is inevitable tate more features/options results in more complexity.

There are two types of basic streamline tools
- The first type are those ones which have no ui options.
- The second type are those ones which has an option ui that you can show/hide by tapping Home key once the tool is activated. The tool names have '#' at the end.

There are two variations of the second type basic streamline tool.
- The first one has a default option set. If the option ui is visible, the ui options are used. Otherwise the dault option set will be used. For example, if you activated a polygon vertex normal direction extrusion tool but you want to do it in average direction. Without droping the tool, you tap Home key to bring up the ui, choose option from the ui then do the operation. You can hide the ui by tapping Home key again. This kind of tool suits situations where you use it very often.
- The seond one has no default option set, so it will alway use the options used in the ui regardless it's visible or not. For example, a general purpose polygon extrude tool. If you use the normal direction option 90% of the time and use the other options occasionally, you can set its ui options to normal direction then hide the ui. Only when you want to change your options you bring up the option ui again. This kind of tool suits situations where only one option is used very often and others seldom. So you don't have to make all the similar tools available through StreamLine tools and this can reduce your ui.

Ok, first of all, I like a lot of the workflow you implemented, IStonia. To name just a few more:
+ automatic conversion of selections when switching component modes
+ changing tools behavior while in use (tapping spacebar/home before interaction and/or during interaction)

Compared to Nvil's feature set, Silo is limping on a stump. A full comparison would be very unequal. But this I want to point out: Silo doesn't have that many tools, but the tools it does have are mostly applicable to all components (mesh, polygon, edge, vertex, sometimes UVs) and sometimes are context sensitive (is something selected etc.). So you can do most of the work with very few tools. There is just one extrude, chamfer or merge (and unfortunately not that many options).

- When I type "extrude" into Nvils tool search I get a total of 24 (!) results. At first this is overwhelming, and not in a good way. When you want to setup your streamline tools, this is simply overstraining. Eventually at some point, you realize that these are all manifestations of the same tool. But for me, that was quite some time, because I didn't use the visual tools window. And still you need to find the manifestiation that suits you.
- And there's even more, that confuses me. For me, it's visually unpredictable if by click on a button in the visual tools window a new option window pops up, or the options are displayed below, or if it's just an action without options or with a dropdown menu. Some buttons look greyed out, so at first I thought these weren't available. I haven't figured out yet what makes them different.
+ Tiles has done a great job with his toolbars, they're more intuitive.

- Another thing that is bothering me is that there are superordinated categories, but the actions are often not accurately subordinated. If there's a category that says "selection tools" I expect, that EVERYTHING (soft selection, selection style, loop/ring select, grow/shrink etc.) having to do with selection can be found in there and not elsewhere.

The more complexity, the more the order of things must be comprehensible and at the same time, easy to use. I'd like to think, that consistency is one important factor. What I am about to suggest may be a bold move. I have put some thought into it, but not yet thought the whole thing through, precisely because Nvil being really complex by now. I would encourage to have an open mind about it and not to refrain from considering big changes. One could always go back (roll back point, revision history, extra branch) and it's still beta.

The hierarchy in Nvil is this: Subobject -> Tool/Action
Since there are a few components, there are somehow redundant tools. My suggestion is to turn the tables: Tool/Action -> Subobject
So how could this work? At first I thought I'd need a distinction between actions and tools, with actions being "one-shot" operations and tools needing interaction from the user of some kind like it is in Maya, but I don't deem that necessary anymore. And with context sensitive operations these 2 get mixed anyway (e.g. context cut).
The distinction I would make is whether an operation has options or not. I would then take a look at which functions could be consolidated into one tool with different options. A good rule of thumb could be: If they have the same name, join them. Grow/Shrink Selection would be such a candidate. Instead of having several actions, you'd have one tool, that can be set to full grow, loop grow, ring grow, single step and so on and so forth. To pick up the example of extrude again, the options would have a common area like direction plus areas for face (inset, new polygons, grouping options) and edge (flat/shoulder style) extrusion respectively. Well, but how do you access the different options as a specific manifestation for the streamline tools, you might ask. I was thinking of customizable presets. Every tool with options should have the ability to save presets. So you set your options as you please and save it as a preset, maybe giving it a nice name. It would be nice if a help text is generated automatically which lists the chosen options. When you now enter your streamline tool customization, you'd create your tool, but wouldn't set a component type for it. When assigning a tool to a hotkey, you just choose the one extrude that exists, but in addition to that you would have to be able to select a preset for use with that tool. Now the preset contains the information what to do in which component mode. While using the tool interactively, you would cycle through the presets by tapping spacebar or whatever and the home key might open the options in windowed mode. When Nvil ships, you'll just need a decent number of reaonable prepared presets and Streamline tools. Everything the users need beyond that, they could build themselves.

Now there's something that would make the process even more enjoyable. That is a dedicated tool options window (dockable), so it's seperated from the calling of the tool (like it is now with the visual tools). At the moment it's also unpredictable if options are displayed inside visual tools window or if a standalone window pops up. It would be nice to always have it in one spot.

I'm sure there are implications that I have not thought of with this idea, but there may be an easy solution and I believe such a change could pay off. Play around with that idea in your mind.

- local move is the same as extruding without creating new polygons.
- collapse ring is the same as weld(general)->collapse edge ring?

- local move is the same as extruding without creating new polygons.
- collapse ring is the same as weld(general)->collapse edge ring?

Yes.

Edit: Generally, if the 'Visual Tools' window is hidden or auto-hide, the ativated tool's option panel will appear floating. For tools which can open in more than one modes, their option panel will be always floating.
In 'Visual Tools' window, flat buttons are for command tools. If a button's name ends with '...', it is a multi-commands button.

you l know if you use streamline tools only it is more like silo, like I only use 1 streamline extrude for example and it does everything I need. some of the tools are actually more powerfull now like a inset extrude in silo was 2 operations but in anvil it is one since the inset tool can do either inset scale like silo or inset extrude.

Yeah, I know I can customize the workflow by using the streamline tools, but the whole point of my idea was to make that process easier on the user by consolidating tools and make it even more customizable.
So here are again the key facts:
+ The number of tools would reduce, but not the functionality!

+ The users would be able to create manifestations (presets/configs) of the tools themselves to use inside a streamline tool or as a user button. On the other hand, IStonia's maintenance effort may reduce, because he wouldn't have to create all the manifestations himself anymore, when features are added to a tool (like extrusion snapping to spline becoming available to all subobjects, or local move not having to be seperated from extrusion).

+ Consistency may increase because of having one area for options, for subobject tools the options for different components are under one roof, maybe sharing common options. If I had saved a preset for extrusion with the direction set to normal, my assigned hotkey, e.g. z+LMB, in the streamline tool would apply that tool in that manner, regardless of component mode (consistent). Personally I would prefer a tool being on the same hotkey (z for extrusion, for example) for any component, rather than having different hotkeys for different components. You'd still be able to do so, by creating another streamline tool with another hotkey and maybe other presets.

+ You can still cycle through all your custom presets while using the tool (tapping Spacebar), modifying options on the fly (WMB) or call the options (home key if the options are not already visible), even when not called by a streamline tool, but activated otherwise (visual tools).

+ You then should be able to switch component modes without leaving the tool, because it's the same tool for all appropriate components.

+ The tooltip help would still show you the different options for each mouse button via the chosen preset. (LMB - Loopcut: selection only, proportional (click edge & drag to slide), #inserts: 1; MMB - Loopcut: midpoint (click edge to cut in the middle & slide); RMB - Loopcut: Doublecut (insert 2 loops at both ends & slide)

+ Besides choosing a preset from a dropdown for a given tool, in the dropdown menu there should also be entries to "show options" and "default". So I could setup presets for duplicate, making a break command (polygons seperated from others, but still inside mesh) or a duplicate command (polygons duplicated, still inside same mesh) and perform these operations via single-key press, or I could call the options when the hotkey is pressed, if I only want to decide then.

I can't think of any downsides of this approach right now, so you've got to help me out, finding them. It's just workload (sorting, consolidating, rewriting the code base ^^, making presets)

I haven't yet considered the implications for all the tools, especially commands/actions, but I think it'll be essentially the same. Save a preset where there are options available (grow selection: ring, full, stride: 2) and assign it (tool+preset) to a streamline tool's 'on activated', if you want to have it that way, or to 'on RMB click', if you want other presets to work as well inside the same hotkey (e.g. On WMB Up - grow selection: ring, single step, stride: 1). Otherwise, when there are no options (e.g. toggle backfaces shaded grey) just assign the command (no presets).
My hope is also that this makes the destinction between streamline hotkeys and normal tool hotkeys obsolete, because I don't get that anyway.

- Now and then I stumble upon tools, that do the same. Split and duplicate for example! Or as I mentioned extrude without creating new polygons and normal move, collapse and weld. I just find this redundance confusing.