What I like & what I don't

iirc there is no extrude tool that doesn't create new geo rightfully so, and normal move is rather unrelated to extrude, and is equivalent of setting the manipulator to normal and translating.

but i do agree things are redundant as hell with the weld collapse tools, there is even a weld that triggers a menu that has collapse in it.

but it is as a result of there being so many ways to weld, like are you trying to weld everything to 1 point, or just weld to nearest, or target weld?

maybe if in the menu system it existed as just weld, with sub entries.


also im a terrible person to talk about htis since everythign i do i do via radial menus and streamlines that are setup like a hybrid of maya and silo.

-'Split' and 'Duplicate' are not the same.

-'Weld(General)' provides the possibility to access all weld/collapse tools. But if you need to do a lot of operations of the same weld, this tool will slow you down. That's why I still keep the individual tools available as seperate entries.

-'Polygon Normal Move' tool is a subset of the polygon visual 'Extrude' tool.

-Some people may like to have all the subset tools made and ready to use, instead of having to create yourself.

-Many tools are not applicable in all modes. So 'Tool/Action -> Subobject' may not be a good general way.

-'Split' and 'Duplicate' are not the same.

Ah, now I see, but the options are the same. You could merge the 2 into one tool, having the options that it already has and a checkbox for "duplicate".

-'Weld(General)' provides the possibility to access all weld/collapse tools. But if you need to do a lot of operations of the same weld, this tool will slow you down. That's why I still keep the individual tools available as seperate entries.

Well, with my suggestion, you wouldn't have to keep them as seperate entries, thus cluttering the ui. You just would have different presets of the same tool available at single key presses or seperate user buttons, if you'd like.

-Some people may like to have all the subset tools made and ready to use, instead of having to create yourself.

That's true, there'll be some people. But it's still possible to create all the possible presets ready to use before shipping. It's the same as you're doing it now. And still people will be able to customize to their liking. And there'll also be people that may like a less cluttered UI and a clearer arrangement of tools (count me in).

-Many tools are not applicable in all modes. So 'Tool/Action -> Subobject' may not be a good general way.

I have thought about that, too, but came to the conclusion that having tools that are available for different subobjects under one roof, could be of more value. The benefits I had listed in the previous posts. And some of the tools, that don't work in all subobject modes could be made to at least work for more than one (example: Silo's loop cut also works in face mode). And what's to hold me back from being able to activate a tool, while in some other mode? I could have a checkbox on the tools saying something like "switch to appropriate component mode on activation if not applicable". Or the tool simply doesn't work in that mode and the cursor would show a prohibitory sign.
One thing would get a little bit difficult though: wanting shift+x+LMB to be relax in edge mode and extrude in face mode, for example. But who does that anyway?!    You could still set shift+x+RMB to be a totally different tool, or you could create another streamline tool with the same hotkey assigned to another tool, but then you'd better be sure that the compatible modes are disjunct.
So you'd have common commands & tools, as you have now, but in the options of these tools, there are specific options for each subobject, if necessary. And then you'll have all the respective component categories with specific tools.

I would have to make a list of all the tools, I think could be one and the same, as well as work in different component modes, and which ones will still be component specific to get a ratio of common/specific tools. But I dont have the time for that at the moment.

don't combine spilt and duplicate, there are no other 3d packages that do so.

also most 3d packages at first appearance seem to have tools that work on all component types like your silo example and maya, and max, but if you look behind the scenes, there is a ton of tools like nvil, that are just being selected based on certain circumstances.

like if you look into the code that generates maya's marking menus, which are context and selection sensitive, you will see the items on the marking menu are actually a bunch of nested "if" statements that choose what tool to use on the go based on selection type and quantity.

same thing for the UI and quad menus in max and almost everything in blender, and modo.

personally i think the solution would be to keep the tools, and have some system for making UI elements do different things based on selection type and amount. which is already done in the streamline engine, and radial menus, it more or less just needs a method for doing this in the menu system, and have a really good default setup.


personally i think the ultimate solution would be to just have a scripting engine like max or maya, where all the tools and commands are accessible from python or a other scripting language, than have some utility commands for getting information like fetching the selection and getting basic scene information.


EDIT:
istonia don't feel too much pressure on the scripting thing, since i know that is a massive massive undertaking and prolly wont happen.

I don't think scripting would make it easier for most of the users, but could be a nice advanced feature. Yet, I still feel like my point is not coming across. My whole idea was to make stuff EASIER to setup. The fact, that I get 24 different tools for extrude is flooring me. Tools are not well arranged (like most of the selection tools not being in the categorie 'selection tools'). And the process of customizing Nvil's hotkeys is exhausting, because there are so many similar tools, when you just need one (which is customizable). For Example I have to setup extrude 4 times, before it works on all subobjects. Then there are 2 different hotkey setups (tools & streamline tools)?! What's that about?
It's a flat hierarchy for tools. With the presets, besides all the other advantages, you'll have one more hierarchy level and making the tools more identifiable and accessible. The list of tools will become shorter, the features richer, the joy greater.

At least we seem to agree that the status quo is no fun and should be changed. Less redundance, more consolidation, more accesibility, easier setup. My suggestion is just one possible solution, and I would gladly hear from other fertile approaches.

24 is a not true though, since if you search extrude there are only 3, with the rest being components of streamline tools, which are needed there for the current method of creating user streamline tools, and most aren't needed by the basic user who doesn't already know about them.

maybe all the streamline basic tools should be hidden from the search, since you can directly access them via the menu system either or even in the radial menu editor or key editor, just in the streamline editor and search atm.

though i do think the the edge, and polygon shortcut tools for extrude should only be one.

I certainly perceived them as being 24 tools. When you're using the software for the first time and look for extrude, you'll get this list. I suppose you don't understand right away what the difference between tools and streamline tools is (hell, I still don't get it, or rather wonder whyyyyyy). And especially when you're a basic user, who doesn't already know about all the extrudes, it's hard to tell which one to use.
And when you hide the Streamline basic tools there are tools, you wouldn't be able to access anymore, like the polygon_chamfer. It doesn't turn up in any UI, except the streamline tools. And it's also inconsistent. Whereas you get all the _chop_off and _refine, _refine_rounded tools for edges, for faces there's just one chamfer and you have to switch between the options via spacebar (at least for me it's spacebar). On top of that it's yet another example of tools that could be merged into one common tool.

I think it'll be best to go through all tools and sort them properly, consolidate, where possible and with the resulting hierarchy in mind, see what's best suited to make it all more user-friendly.

ya i think all the UI stuff can be consolidated, and made sure of that all features are possible with that method.

but i would like the streamline system to stay similar to how it currently is, since i have my own tools built on it, and it is very flexible for the advanced user in it's current manifestation.

maybe quick fix for now is to have by default a filter on search that makes it no include the streamline basic tools?

No, I wasn't looking for a quickfix on the search. that would be like fighting the symptoms, but not the cause. The streamline system would still be flexible, maybe even more, and easier to cope with. And you'd be able to achieve exactly the same setup, as you have now, I believe, but perhaps quicker. But I wouldn't restrain from changes, because a few people have already made their setups. when I first proposed this idea, I was also saying, that you could always go back, if it didn't work out or pay off, or having a branch at the side that tests this idea.

And the Then there are 2 different hotkey setups (tools & streamline tools)?! What's that about?

I suppose you don't understand right away what the difference between tools and streamline tools is (hell, I still don't get it, or rather wonder whyyyyyy).

Well, before we can go any further, these two questions must be answered first. I would like to see other people's answers rather than I answer it.

I think it'll be best to go through all tools and sort them properly, consolidate, where possible and with the resulting hierarchy in mind, see what's best suited to make it all more user-friendly.

Phew, this could take some time. Time I don't have at the moment. I just converted the hotkeys.xml to a table and there are 590 entries (some of them probably user setup streamline tools or radial menus, hence the strange ID names). But what's not in there are these, what I call manifestations that you can choose from in the streamline tool's setup, e.g. Vertex_Chamfer_ChopOff or Polygon_Extrude_AverageNormal.

What I will probably do is, to categorize whether something is concerned with mesh interaction, or with the interface, as well as if something is a one-shot-action or some interactive tool. But I have the feeling that won't do much for the cause. Maybe I get to know the tools a little it better that I've missed so far.

+ I just discovered 'Tweak Vertex' and its different brush tools. I had used the brush relax before, but I didn't know there were others. It's a really nice way of tweaking silhouettes of organic models, especially by being able to click outside of the mesh boundaries. WMB can be used to set brush size while the redirect key on the streamline tools makes it possible to set the strength via click & drag.

- Inflate is named "Explode" in the brush tools of tweak vertex.
- Pinch is missing in the brush tools of tweak vertex. It does the opposite of inflate (well, not exactly), which is pulling vertices closer together.

+ 'Select Similar' is a really nice feature that saves a lot of selection effort.
+ 'Vertex Transform Along Edges' will become useful. It's nice how you can preserve the surrounding shape of simple meshes with this. Making a cylinder top to be at a specific angle is now as easy as rotating.

I have to get back to my suggestion of a preset architecture of tools.
- Everytime I'd like to have a specific configuration of a visual tool as a streamline tool that hasn't been implemented yet, I have to ask the developer. Just now, I'd like to build myself an "orient tool", like Silo has it. I know it's possible in NVil if I open up the extrusion options and uncheck "Create new polygons" and choose cursor control. But I couldn't find a streamline tool for that behavior. If I was able to save that configuration of the extrude tool as a preset and set that preset up as a streamline tool, I would have easily solved the problem without making the developer any hassle. It might be also possible to have presets for 0.5 extrusion, 1.0, 1.5 and so on, if that was what I would always be looking for. Such a preset functionality would make NVil even more flexible and customizable.

Just now, I'd like to build myself an "orient tool", like Silo has it. I know it's possible in NVil if I open up the extrusion options and uncheck "Create new polygons" and choose cursor control. But I couldn't find a streamline tool for that behavior.

Streamline tools-> Local move polygon (hotkey H). The MMB is set for "Polygon_LocalMove_CursorDirection

Just to add.
After using that tool/function, the last action is stored and can be recalled by pressing the hotkey(H)+LMB(click)