further examples for possible Slim-Down

I just stumbled over Loop-Relax vs Common Tools/Relax.

This is another example where I wished the Program to behave differently:
Currently the user has to choose the appropriate out of different commands, depending on Item-Selection.
I however would prefer if there was just one Relax-Command and the Program figured out what's selected and then ram the appropriate Relax-Algorithm for that Context. So that it indeed
used different principles to relax a Loop of Edges and to relax a complete mesh but we only
had to remember one command.

The same goes with Bridge and Bridge Hole in Edge-Mode - one Command should be enough.
Based on the selection the Program should figure out what we want to do.
Two opposite Edges around one missing Face selected? We want to fill this hole.
Any equal amount of Edges on two faces selected? We want to fill in these Faces.
Complete Loops on two faces selected? We want to fill in the whole Loop (Bridge)

+1

+1, and exposing more contexts to the streamline tool editor, and radial menu editor, currently the only contexts you got are related to what the component type is, while some of hte built in tools know and act on things based on what is selected or not selected.

+1 this as well! Good call.

+1 also.

Maybe we could help out Istonia by making a list here of all the duplicated commands we see dotted around the app or further ways to streamline and update the 1st post to keep things clear.

Another possible area to slim down is mirroring/symmetry. As a character sculptor, mirroring is #1 on my personal priority list. In VoidWorld, there are a bunch of ways to create a mirror, or create symmetry, which is fantastic. I would love to see all of the possibilities located in the same menu area, streamline tool, and/or set of icons.

For some suggestions to simplify...

I wish turning on symmetry (the icon in the top bar, or hitting a hot-key), actually calculated symmetry topologically for the selected object(s) (no matter which sub-object you were in). A drop-down menu could select which axis (-x for default).

Second, Mirror should have a similar icon/hot-key, and the ability to mirror the object (again no matter which sub-object mode you were in at the time) across the world axis -X by default, with options to mirror on a different axis, or to mirror on object axis (cut positive/negative), or to weld the center. Then post -mirroring, VoidWorld should auto-calculate topological symmetry.

I actually made a video showing what I mean. https://vimeo.com/45116844

Cheers,
-ShaneO

Yes, this is neatly done in Silo.

I really wonder what could be the most effective way to help IStonia to condense the the already existing functionality. One of the ways was probably to stop asking for any more features.
This is of course hard for anyone but I guess IStonia has still far more on the plate than a single person can handle.

Also I can imagine that the sort of shrinkage some of us have in mind is probably programatically nasty and time-consuming. I guess its far cleaner and more fun to add new functionality than replumbing existing blocks of code. One example for such "too high complexity from ground up"is the still existing division between meshes and objects (although one can hide the Mesh-Interface-items). The program also carries arould several areas which are not seriously on par with the modeling environment, half developed and broken in parts. UV-mapping, Bones, Retopo and internal model-libraries come to my mind.

I would suggest to through all of this out, at least for the first release, seriously.
All these workspaces just open so many  additional cans of worms and in their current state add close to no value to the program while increasing the overall complexity. Just recently I enabled "Retopo-Mode" in options and thought that this was just a global activation-switch.
For weeks I thereafter wondered why my specular highlights were gone... the program without telling me just assumed that I wanted to do nothing but Retopo now and that a diffuse Shader is required...
VW is still full of such traps (undocumented features and state-changes).

I actually think that the mirroring in Voidworld is far superior to Silo's.  Controlling that symmetry plane in Silo was a nightmare and I'd quite often end up with something that was off the world axis and the model would become asymmetrical.

One thing I wish Nvil would do is, not destroy the existing uvs when calculating symmetry.  I can understand when using the Symmetry Cut as that destroys the geometry topology but calculating symmetry shouldn't do that and keep the uvs as they are.

The reason I think this is important is that often I will need to make symmetrical proportional tweaks to a model towards the end of it's life before exporting to an engine and keeping uvs intact is a must.

Couple of questions to Istonia.

• Would it be possible to keep the vertex order when using the 'calculate symmetry' command?
• Can we keep uvs intact when using the 'Calculate Symmetry' command?

cheers

p.s. I do strongly agree with 3DToons that conglomerating the different symmetry commands for the different subobject methods is a must.  Executing intelligently the correct command (behind the scenes) depending on the current subobject level would make the app feel a lot cleaner.

Polyxo: I agree with you 100%. I am not intentionally asking for new features, but you're right, I'm sure context-sensitive mirroring would take some major programming. Honestly, I would still be content, if all of the current mirroring and symmetry functionality was either easy to get to/made sense, or maybe all in one place.

ghib: I think I spent an hour yesterday combing through menus and the help, trying to figure out how to do a simple mirror, then turn on symmetry for a pair of boots! I could find symmetry cut, and calculate by vertex, which wasn't what I wanted... until I finally gave up and posted to the forum. IStonia politely answered, and now I know how to do it, but it shouldn't have taken that long. So even if the mirroring is superior to Silo's, if I don't understand how to use it, it's not (maybe I'm blind). That's why I'm asking to somehow combine mirroring and symmetry, and put them somewhere that makes sense to the user. Thanks for your additional input! Oh, and I think "calculate symmetry topologically" under edge mode (currently broken in the latest build), keeps the vertex order and UVs if I'm not mistaken?

I'd also like to add, IStonia, along with all of this constructive criticism, you've done a fantastic job on this program! I can't believe it's all programmed by one brilliant guy. I took a break from VoidWorld for a while, and have just recently tried using it again. You have made massive strides in making the program ready for mainstream! Well done! Just know that all of our suggestions and criticism are meant to help you get it there, they're not just complaints. I know you read a lot of these suggestions, and probably sigh. But keep moving forward! You are doing a fantastic job!!!

Cheers,
-ShaneO

Shane: You may like to have a look at this, End key + Geometry > Resymmetry. There are explanation for this tool on top of the 'Customize Tool' form. Thanks for the video!

ghib: Symmetry calculation operation does not alter vertex order and uvs. If it does, let me know.

I just stumbled over Loop-Relax vs Common Tools/Relax.

This is another example where I wished the Program to behave differently:
Currently the user has to choose the appropriate out of different commands, depending on Item-Selection.
I however would prefer if there was just one Relax-Command and the Program figured out what's selected and then ram the appropriate Relax-Algorithm for that Context. So that it indeed
used different principles to relax a Loop of Edges and to relax a complete mesh but we only
had to remember one command.

The same goes with Bridge and Bridge Hole in Edge-Mode - one Command should be enough.
Based on the selection the Program should figure out what we want to do.
Two opposite Edges around one missing Face selected? We want to fill this hole.
Any equal amount of Edges on two faces selected? We want to fill in these Faces.
Complete Loops on two faces selected? We want to fill in the whole Loop (Bridge)

There is a problem. "Edge Loop Relax" only works in edge mode and it tries to maintain object's original shape. "General Relax" works on all subobject modes. So if I merge them into one command you won't be able to do two different relaxings in edge mode.


I am a little confused on what you said about the bridge tool. In edge mode, Geometry > Bridge can do normal bridging and hole bridging. Geometry > Bridge Hole is a visual tool.

"Two opposite Edges around one missing Face selected? We want to fill this hole."
-What if some one wants to bridge the two edges rather than filling the hole?

"Any equal amount of Edges on two faces selected? We want to fill in these Faces."
-Not quite get it. Holes can be filled. But it is 'Faces" here.

"Complete Loops on two faces selected? We want to fill in the whole Loop (Bridge)"
-Do you mean the same result as Polygon Mode > Bridge.

ghib: Symmetry calculation operation does not alter vertex order and uvs. If it does, let me know.

My apologies for this Istonia.  At some point ( I think around the time you introduced Calculate Symmetry) I tried the new tool and it broke the uvs, so I presumed that this was the way it was intended to work.

I just tried it again and it works as you say.

Thanks

Hi ISTonia,
just note that my posting you refer to is already some months old.
So concerning the Bridge-Tool some of the issues are no more in place.
One can now run it as a Tool with identical name from both Face-Mode and Edge-Mode which
is nice.
Two more remarks though: Bridge should undo cleanly. Currently it leaves holes
(should undo one more step). Also Bridge should be hooked up to your great interactive loop
insertion mechanism. It should work perfectly the same in all applicable commands.

Concerning smoothing:
First off - my personal wishes for SubD's may differ from what others need.
SubD-meshes for me has nothing at all to do with precision -  by definition.
When I need precision I always use Nurbs.
This will bias my opinion about different methods of automated model-cleanup.
For me speed and usability are the most important goal, always.
One function hooked up smartly and always at hand beats myriads of options.
What's the sense of such automated helpers anyway?
They bring us half of the way, finishing touches still have to be done by hand.

So when I speak of smoothing I could gladly live with just one paradigm (which internally
might get optimized per selected Subobject-type).
I would be just fine with that if it only works reliably and gives me control about dosage.
Inside VW I find that there's not yet a usable solution found in this matter.
The default relax mechanism (as well as specialties such as spherize are of very limited use
as one has no means to impact their strength.

The gif shows Silos simple but helpful smoothing.
I change the value by holding modifiers and scrolling the wheel. The second scroll-direction calls
undo.

Polyxo: I use the "smooth" function in Silo quite a bit. Glen Southern taught me how to assign it to my Mouse Wheel just like you are describing. After IStonia pointed out I can assign functions to the Wheel inside of any Streamline tool, I assigned "Relax Selection" to my WMB Up while pressing the Ctrl key, which essentially does the same function as smooth, and works with Soft Select! Then I assigned Undo to MWB Down to Undo just like you described. Here is an image showing how I set it up.



Is there any way to change the Relax step strength? I sometimes find that relax effects my mesh too much, and I would like to tone it down, or adjust on the fly.

Cheers,
-ShaneO

Shane, I hope the new selection relax option can satisfy you.