March 2nd build

I'm just testing out the Mar. 2nd build.  The "Connect" tool doesn't show a preview of the loop when you are in Sub-D mode.

Also, again coming from a Softimage background, "Connect" doesn't make sense to me for the name of the tool.  To me, Connect means that it would connect the edges I've selected.  But this tool splits/slices through the edge loops.  I think it would make much more sense to be called "Slice" or "Loop Split" or something like that.

-Paul

which connect are you using the Visual oneÉ

if yes you know it has multiple modes, one does a full loop, the other connects your selection.

the streamline one is broken to 2 tools, there is context cut which does connect on edges, than there is a loop cut and slide one.

I assume I'm using the visual one, though to this day I don't understand why there are multiple versions of tools that do the same thing.  Since one of my first applications I ever used was Lightwave, I have this strong urge to remind developers to simplify and combine as many tools as possible.  Lightwave suffered/suffers from having way too many tools that did similar things. 

Anyway, when I'm in non-subD mode, I get a representation of the cut, and when I'm in SubD mode, there's nothing at all.

I think before VW ever gets released, it'd be a very good idea to look at it from the perspective of either someone who has little/no 3D modeling experience, as well as someone coming from another well-established package such as Maya, Softimage, Lightwave or C4D, and then create a LOT of documentation and tutorials.

I personally keep trying to bring it into my workflow for some projects, but always find myself frustrated that it doesn't work the way anything else I've ever used works.  I would love to see it be a huge success and I see tons of potential here, but my fear is people won't want to pick it up if it's too unfamiliar in how it works.

Paul


 

well it sounds like what you want is the streamline tools, which have a lot of simpler actions tied into 1 tool based on context.

the visual ones are pretty much there for people that want to access things via a gui and not key commands, and for entering exact values.

and would be kinda hard to make VW completely familiar, when it;s strong point is it;s customizable tools, i more or less went and changed everything, in my VW setup, which helps since i no exactly what every tool will do in every context and key combo, and have made some custom tools to suit my needs.

also kinda hard to make similar tools, since out of the box silo is the olny 3d packages i know of that has tools that work in a similar manner, and silo isn't exactly that known.

There are several tools that don't get "preview" in SubD mode.
I recall Istonia said that he can't do anything about it, for the time being.

Very true.  Silo was one heck of a cool modeler for its time.

I guess my fear is, as a Softimage user mainly, when I come in to VW I don't see streamline tools anywhere.  I see buttons and drop-down menus.  So without any sort of introduction to it, I'm lost. 

I've managed to bind the navigation, selection keys and things like transform, rotate and scale to match Softimage.  But beyond that I still find myself getting lost and confused a lot.

Paul

ya i come from a different kinda workflow, i actually haven't even looked at hte menus of VW in months since i have all my tools on keys and the lest used stuff in radial menus.

but after taking a little peak i see your problem with the nameing, there is a "loop insert" entry in the menu that does what you would expect connect to do, and connect does what i would expect loop inset to do, so flipping those names in the menu would be good.

ya sorry didn't actually peak at the menu before replying last time, it really could use a little clean up and some work making the names consistent there, even the grouping and order of menu entries could use some work, since there are some related thigns that are pretty far apart in that menu.

Very true.  Silo was one heck of a cool modeler for its time.

I guess my fear is, as a Softimage user mainly, when I come in to VW I don't see streamline tools anywhere.  I see buttons and drop-down menus.  So without any sort of introduction to it, I'm lost. 

I've managed to bind the navigation, selection keys and things like transform, rotate and scale to match Softimage.  But beyond that I still find myself getting lost and confused a lot.

Paul

There were no similar "Streamline tools display" type options in Silo either.
You customized/adjusted the shortcuts, and that was about it.You do the same in Streamline tools window. Those "tools" are not necessary to set up to do the modeling
as most commands and operations are in top menus which are context aware.
Those are just a more convenient way to use multiple tools at expense of one shortcut key.
You may want to enable "Smart tips" and "Show instant help" in Edit/options.
Those help a lot when using streamline tools. Also right click menu can be of aid.
I guess the terminology (streamline tools,visual tools...)is what is confusing, not the actual tools which are basically the same as in any other modeler.

If you want I can help you set up streamline tools and other stuff into a keyboard mapping?
Just tell me what do you need and what exactly you do not understand?

I totally agree with you there.  The term streamline tools and visual tools are pretty confusing.

My understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that visual tools are the buttons you see in the interface and streamline tools can be either a single tool or a series of tools chained together like a macro.

BUT... then when people talk about them, I get the feeling that they're totally separate things.  As if there are actually two totally different programs and VW is the front-end to both of them.

It gives the impression that if this were a carpentry shop, you're telling the carpenter, "well, you can either use the hammer you see sitting over there on the bench, but there's also a totally different hammer that's hidden in a secret compartment and you have to know the right button to push to open the secret door.  But if you know the secret button, you get the secret hammer faster."  My question would then be - why 2 hammers at all?

Maybe my understanding is totally wrong.  But I suppose that could be a good reason to make sure there's lots of good documentation & tutorials ready for launch.  Maybe just a wiki that gives a list of every tool, what it does and how to access it.  Eyeon does a good job of this with their VFXPedia site - check it out:  http://vfxpedia.com

But again, I hope nobody misunderstands and think I'm negative on this app at all.  It's really awesome.  I just don't want anything to stand in the way of it being widely accepted.

Paul
 

My understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that visual tools are the buttons you see in the interface and streamline tools can be either a single tool or a series of tools chained together like a macro.

BUT... then when people talk about them, I get the feeling that they're totally separate things.  As if there are actually two totally different programs and VW is the front-end to both of them.

It gives the impression that if this were a carpentry shop, you're telling the carpenter, "well, you can either use the hammer you see sitting over there on the bench, but there's also a totally different hammer that's hidden in a secret compartment and you have to know the right button to push to open the secret door.  But if you know the secret button, you get the secret hammer faster."  My question would then be - why 2 hammers at all?

Maybe my understanding is totally wrong.  But I suppose that could be a good reason to make sure there's lots of good documentation & tutorials ready for launch.  Maybe just a wiki that gives a list of every tool, what it does and how to access it.  Eyeon does a good job of this with their VFXPedia site - check it out:  http://vfxpedia.com

But again, I hope nobody misunderstands and think I'm negative on this app at all.  It's really awesome.  I just don't want anything to stand in the way of it being widely accepted.

Paul
 

Yes, visual tools are those buttons and sliders you can use instead of interactive, non UI version, or if you need precise control of certain tool operation (numeric etc). Softimage equivalent would be tool PPG's. I guess equivalent for streamline tool would be "split edge tool" with two operations depending on mouse button, or recently added "quick Extrude tool" (by piotrek) which has three operations bound to one shortcut key and mouse buttons (extrude, bevel,inset). except it is hard coded, where streamline offers customization (key/mouse) much deeper than Silo.   

I understand, I get it like that also,but I tune out and simplify it in my head. I guess people need fewer options and terms to feel comfortable. I also dreaded Streamline tools (key customization), but once I opened the editor it was really great way to customize stuff, so much that I almost didn't need visual tools (buttons) at all.

I guess it is a compromise of some kind. They are all the same tools, but if you use buttons (visual tools) you get more control, like a PPG in XSI.

There is a basic user guide/manual in Voidwold. It is updated as new tools are integrated.
I found it pretty straight forward. I'd like to see it expand, of course.

Don't worry, I think criticism is welcome.