Weld

Hi IStonia,

Is it intentional that the "Geometry > Collapse Loop" tool does not collapse a fully selected closed edge loop?

Yes, it is intentional.

After looking more at the collapse tools, I find that the "Collapse Loop" does in fact collapse a fully selected closed edge loop, as long as it is part of a multiple selection that contains an open loop selection.
 

First, it won't weld to the selection center. Secondly, the result is not wanted in most cases.

How is NVIL calculating the collapse point(s) for the selections with the "Collapse Loop" tool?
It is one thing to state a specific known result is not wanted in most cases, but an unpredictable/uncontrollable result is better how?

Regards,

-Steve

Just for the sake to finish this issue, and because you asked for a video, here it is.

http://www.reinerstilesets.de/ext/voidworld/blendermerge.mp4

People consider you wall since it looks like your trying to drive the app away from streamline tools and radial menus to a all GUI approach, and a lot of the users here are he because of the streamline tools and its likeness to silo.

also your comments about speed have a lot to do with knowledge of the program, im pretty sure you can post a video of you making any shape in one of the apps you mention, that i could accomplish faster in NVil with my workflow and setup.

Passerby, it is understandable some people don't like hotkey workflow because they may really find it hard to remember hotkeys. Even in extreme case, people may have problem with their fingers. My righhand middle finger is partially disabled.

Tiles, many thanks for the video. I don't mean to laugh at any one. Please understand I feel frustrated too when I don't know how to understand people's idea.
From the video, I think NVil's general 'Collapse' can basically do every thing you shown in the video. Correct me if I am wrong. In Blender, you have to choose an option after clicking the 'Merge' menu. Is it really necessary? It just slows things down imho.

http://youtu.be/MP5gFV8WyLI

this all uses 1 key in my setup, than i show the gui way, the olny real issue i see is that collaspe is 2 menus levels deep, which is slow, so maybe a massive menu reorganization needs to be looked at at somepoint, but this can be nullified with the user toolbars.

also when i was doing target welds, it is extremely fast compared to most apps, since no selection has to be made, and i don't have to click.

hover vert, hold m drag to target vert release, and done.

People consider you wall since it looks like your trying to drive the app away from streamline tools and radial menus to a all GUI approach, and a lot of the users here are he because of the streamline tools and its likeness to silo.

No. Merging several subtools into one tool has nothing to do with how you deal with this tool then. But with workflow speed. To deal with one general tool that works in all modes is simply faster than to deal with several specialized subtools which just works in special modes.

also your comments about speed have a lot to do with knowledge of the program, im pretty sure you can post a video of you making any shape in one of the apps you mention, that i could accomplish faster in NVil with my workflow and setup.

What about knowledge of other 3D apps? I can compare. I have Nvil here, i have trueSpace here, i have Blender here. And i know how to use them, not only how to open them. I can compare them. I also know Silo a bit. Even when i`ve never really dived into it. That you have learned to scratch your right ear with your left hand much faster than me to scratch my right ear with my right hand may be nice. But doesn`t change the fact that scratching with the right hand may be better for most of us. Even for you.

Learning the app costs time. And the steeper the learning curve the more time it costs. Clicking the wrong button or pressing the wrong hotkey costs time too. Thinking in what case you are, and which tool you need to use for this special case costs also time. And the more special tools and cases you have the more time it costs you to think about your current special case and what tool to use.

The best modeler is not the one with the most tools. The best modeler is the one that has the fewest tools that nevertheless gives you the fastest way to do the bread and butter work. That`s why i still work with trueSpace instead of Blender. That`s why i have stopped working with Nvil, and went back to trueSpace. It has the more limited toolset, but i am faster here.

I have one button, one hotkey for weld in tS. Okay, it has no settings. It doesn`t have target weld or collapse. So this may not count. But it`s to 99% enough for my needs.

And i have one hotkey and a mouseclick in Blender. That`s two actions. But since you always have one hand at the mouse still a very fast method.

In Nvil i have several special cases tools with settings to adjust for what is one mouse click in tS and a hotkey and a mouseclick in Blender. And that`s simply much slower to use. No matter if you use streamline tools, radial menu or traditional menu/button UI.

I don`t want to take you something away. I am just very good at finding and pointing at problems. I want to help to improve the app where possible. Not to cut something away. Extending is the key. Sure, i want to add a graphical UI when possible. But i do not want replace the other ways of useage. It`s something that can be used, not must be used. Like your streamline tools can be used, but not must be used because there is also the radial menu.

Have a look at the new User toolbars. It gets happily used. Have a look at Blender and its development. It was "streamline" before 2.5x. But this hotkey only UI was what has scared thousands and thousands of users away. Including me. This has changed with 2.5x. The "streamline" way is still possible though.

Why not create something that is even better than Silo? For me it`s the mix that works fastest.  Some things i do by hotkey, some things i do by menu or buttons. I am surely not alone here. And even you will be in trouble to remember the 300 + hotkeys that are possible in Nvil.

Regarding the wall and protecting the app from other influences, do you know Unity? Sure you do. Do you know Gamecore too? That game development tool was at its time equal powerful than Unity. But its fans have protected the product to death. They scared everybody away who said anything against the software. They scared everybody away who had proposals and introduced ideas for improvements. I got even flamed for reporting bugs there, which is something i have never seen again. The result can be seen at the Gamecore page now. A dead forum, no users left. Even making it free hasn`t changed anything. I always wonder why the page is still up.

Is this what you want for Nvil? Your favourite app, but just YOUR favourite app?

also when i was doing target welds, it is extremely fast compared to most apps, since no selection has to be made, and i don't have to click.

hover vert, hold m drag to target vert release, and done.

No selection? No click? Please. Pressing hotkey = pressing hotkey. Just that i press the hotkey after selection. Hover weld = first selection. Target weld = second selection. Nothing else than in other apps. And surely not faster.

What is slower though is that in Blender or trueSpace i can select a face or edge, and weld it with the same hotkey together, no matter in what mode i am. While in Nvil i have to switch to the right mode first. And think about choosing the right hotkey then.

Tiles, many thanks for the video. I don't mean to laugh at any one. Please understand I feel frustrated too when I don't know how to understand people's idea.

Thanks for clarification. I know this feeling too. And i know that i can be a pain. I can be very straight forward and dedicated. Sorry bout that.

From the video, I think NVil's general 'Collapse' can basically do every thing you shown in the video. Correct me if I am wrong.

That`s the part i doubt. Because then you could remove the other methods

In Blender, you have to choose an option after clicking the 'Merge' menu. Is it really necessary? It just slows things down imho.

No it is not necessary. But it`s one valid way to solve this. The menu appears under the mouse, and the last used menu item stays under the mouse cursor. You just need to click when you want to use the same method than before. Which is fast. Hotkey, mouseclick, done. Of course i would wish to have this mouse click not necessary. But they have solved it that way. The benefit is all is in one tool, and all works in all modes. You have solved it the way that you have split everything into several subtools that works in several modes.

Hm. You could solve it by an appearing option panel in the visual tools. First hotkey calls the panel. Pressing it again performs the weld. That would be a fast way when you want to perform the same weld method again and again. And gives you the way to switch to another method when needed. Maybe even make it so that it welds with the first hotkey pressing anyways. Which nevertheless calls the options so that you can do an undo and change the method. Maybe implement a way to switch the weld method with another hotkey too.

You could even do the following: rename all the current subtools to weld. And use the same hotkey for it then. They are mode dependand anyways. Then add a way to do all weld jobs in all modes.

The crucial part for me is to have just one weld tool, have it working in the same way and to have it available in all modes. Which is currently not the case. How to do this is a detail question then, where the practice will show the best way. All i can do is to give suggestions, and to show how other big packages have solved it. I think i have said it before that sometimes a look at other software packages is a good idea.

Hm, pretty long story for the fact that i wanted to stop this discussion. I better stop now.

You always seem to think I'm attacking your whole arguments, which I'm not. Also your comment about needing to be in the right componet mode is wrong, I did everything on the video you posted, useing only 1 tool, and I did it all from, vert, edge, and face modes.

You always seem to think I'm attacking your whole arguments, which I'm not.

And you always think i will harm your app. Which i`m not. What i seem to feel though is that you are strictly against any changings, in fear that your app could become a second Blender or trueSpace. Again. This is not my intention. I just see what goes wrong and could be improved. I am very good at that.

useing only 1 tool

So what are the other Nvil collapse/weld tools good for then?

And we still talk about the standard weld here by using a hotkey? Or have you made your own custom streamline tool here? I have created a hotkey for weld in the vertex mode. I am in face mode. I select a face. I hit the weld hotkey. And nothing happens. No panel, no reaction. I am in edge mode, hit the hotkey, and nothing happens. No panel, no reaction. I am even in vertex mode, hit the hotkey, and nothing happens besides the panel in the Visual tools opens up. Where i have to choose the method, select my vertices again, hit the apply button, and then it finally welds. Now that`s a fast workflow ...

Collapse maybe? I have made a hotkey for Collapse from the edge tools too. I select a face, switch to Edgemode, and now guess what doesn`t work.

I don`t even bother to describe my experiences with the other methods.

We talk definitely about totally different tools here when you know one weld tool that does all the things that the whole bunch of weld/ collapse tools in Nvil is meant for. So where is it? Show me please.

Collapse maybe? I have made a hotkey for Collapse from the edge tools too. I select a face, switch to Edgemode, and now guess what doesn`t work.

The "Edge Shortcut Tools > Collapse Loop" does not work on a single closed edge_loop (I mentioned that in an earlier post).

The only Collapse tool that will work in all sub_object modes is the "Subobject Shortcut Tools > Collapse" That will work as you expect.

Do not shoot me, I am only the messenger

Do not shoot me, I am only the messenger

Thanks for reminding me to put my feelings aside. They don`t belong here, indeed

The only Collapse tool that will work in all sub_object modes is the "Subobject Shortcut Tools > Collapse" That will work as you expect.

And thanks also here. Now we are talking, this works like in trueSpace and Blender. One click or one key. Sadly that`s the only weld tool that i haven`t found and tried, i definitely have overlooked this part of your answer. Else the discussion would`ve been much much shorter :/

It is nevertheless a specialized subtool again. It lacks of Target Weld. It lacks of Weld at Centerpoint. Weld to 3D cursor is sometimes very useful too. But Nvil doesn`t have a 3D cursor anyways. What`s good is that it works in all modes. That`s how it should be. This weld tool should be the one that you find immediately, not the specialized tools that fills the gaps of it.

I still think that there are a few weld methods too much in Nvil. But anyways.

It is nevertheless a specialized subtool again. It lacks of Target Weld.

It allows 2 preselected vertex to be welded to last selected.

Weld to 3D cursor is sometimes very useful too. But Nvil doesn`t have a 3D cursor anyways.

Maybe a request for collapse to pivot point? Although that would probably be another tool.

It allows 2 preselected vertex to be welded to last selected.

So we have in fact nearly everything what is in the other tools already, haven`t we? Besides the collapse at center point

Tiles, you need to change your glasses. The 'Collapse' tool has been mentioned many many times in the posts, the videos and the update notes.

Now, please don't miss this new one, Geometry > Common Commands n Tools > Weld(General).

Tiles, you need to change your glasses. The 'Collapse' tool has been mention many many times in the posts, the videos and the update notes.

That was because i thought we talk about another collapse tool. There´s more than one in your software

Now, please don't miss this new one, Geometry > Common Commands n Tools > Weld(General).

Aaaand taken. Will have a look as fast as the download is finished. Thanks for the improvements