NVil Forum
General Category => Community Help => Topic started by: kevjon on May 06, 2015, 11:52:10 am
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I'm finding this really frustrating in Nvil.
I align the manipulator/pivot to position/orientation of a polygon selection.
When switch to object mode pivot jumps to where it was previously aligned in object mode.
Is there a way to keep the pivot position and orientation when switching from subobject mode to object mode ?
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Object Pivot is different from Sub-Object Pivot.
So you have to set them independently.
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Ok, how do I set object pivot to match the subobject selection shown. (ie the cap of cylinder)
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Press F1 and set it :)
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How do you centre it on the end cap using F1 ?
There are no snaps for the middle of a polygon ?
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I do not put snap to center of polygon in config, never used it.
You have to just poke this cap D+MMB, and then set.
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Hi Kevjon,
I align the manipulator/pivot to position/orientation of a polygon selection.
When switch to object mode pivot jumps to where it was previously aligned in object mode.
I could give a long drawn out explanation, but that may confuse more, but what is happening, is the manipulator is automatically switching between "Manual" and "Object"
Is there a way to keep the pivot position and orientation when switching from subobject mode to object mode ?
How I work with manipulator.
In ""Edit > Preference > Options", set "Remember Manipulator Manual Pose".
With that enabled, the "Manual" position/orientation of the manipulator will not be automatically updated/changed by Nvil. It will only change if you use the manipulator "Set", or move the manipulator while the manipulator is set to "Manual".
So for example, in the situation you mention.
You call "Set manipulator" while is sub_object mode, Nvil will automatically change manipulator orientation/position to "Manual", and you set manipulator to position/orientation. You make selections while in object mode and find manipulator now automatically set to "Object" and manipulator as moved. Simply change manipulator back to "Manual", and the manipulator will move back to its last manually set position.
Note:
You should also think about using the "Transform" list. You can store the position/orientation of the manipulator and recall them at any time.
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In ""Edit > Preference > Options", set "Remember Manipulator Manual Pose".
I've checked Andrei's interface and this was already checked before I posted. Its good to know what this does, so thanks for that.
With that enabled, the "Manual" position/orientation of the manipulator will not be automatically updated/changed by Nvil. It will only change if you use the manipulator "Set", or move the manipulator while the manipulator is set to "Manual".
Ok, understood.
So for example, in the situation you mention.
You call "Set manipulator" while is sub_object mode, Nvil will automatically change manipulator orientation/position to "Manual", and you set manipulator to position/orientation. You make selections while in object mode and find manipulator now automatically set to "Object" and manipulator as moved. Simply change manipulator back to "Manual", and the manipulator will move back to its last manually set position.
I select the ngon on top of the cylinder and set it to selection for both position & orientation (see first image of my original post). I now hit the set button on both position and orientation and it changes to manual. All good so far.
I now go to object mode and manipulator jumps to its own position/orientation. I change position & orientation to manual (without hitting the set button) and nothing happens. The manipulator does not jump to the position/orientation of the previous selection.
Note:
You should also think about using the "Transform" list. You can store the position/orientation of the manipulator and recall them at any time.
I figured out how to save the current transform easy enough and it leaves a little icon.
I then go to object mode but don't know how to get my object transform to align with the saved transform?
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Hay kevjon,
Looks like you choose the hardest way, check the simplest:
http://take.ms/NQ80y
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Andrei
I appreciate you going to the trouble of putting a video together. I do not have a problem aligning the pivot to the centre of a cylinder cap. It is only an example I post on the forum to make it easy to convey the issue I am having with two different pivots in subobject/object modes.
In suboject mode it is very easy to select a polygon and align the pivot to the centre of it with selection and orientate the pivot along its normal. This also works really well for multiple edges and multiple vertices.
My problem is how do I keep the pivot in that position/orientation when I go to object mode ?
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Use Manual Pivot for this. set it in subobject mode, then after, go to the object mode ant then switch to manual.
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I select the ngon on top of the cylinder and set it to selection for both position & orientation (see first image of my original post). I now hit the set button on both position and orientation and it changes to manual. All good so far.
I now go to object mode and manipulator jumps to its own position/orientation. I change position & orientation to manual (without hitting the set button) and nothing happens. The manipulator does not jump to the position/orientation of the previous selection.
You just have the process a little mixed up. Maybe my explanation was confusing.
I presume the "F1" key is set for the streamline tool "Set manipulator"
So you press/hold "F1"(which calls "set manipulator") then LMB(or RMB) on snap point to set manipulator position/orientation. Anytime you now have the manipulator in "manual" it will move back to that set position, or it should do unless there is a problem with your config.
I figured out how to save the current transform easy enough and it leaves a little icon.
I then go to object mode but don't know how to get my object transform to align with the saved transform?
In the transform list window, select the entry you waant to align to. Press "F1"(for set manipulator"), then click on the "Perform Aligning" in the transform list window. The manipulator will align to the transform position. You then cancel the popup window.
The transform list is actually for moving objects/sub_objects to pre-set positions, but by using "Set manipulator" you can use those entries to set the manipulator.
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Use Manual Pivot for this. set it in subobject mode, then after, go to the object mode ant then switch to manual.
Andrei
When in suboject mode, I want to position the manipulater dead centre of a loop of vertices. I cannot do this manually (except guess) so it has to be positioned by selection. Orientation most times I want to be by selection also.
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To position Manual Pivot to center, just Poke polygon.
Selection orientation worth practically only when you select one Polygon or other one subobject(you can easely reproduce it by setting Manual Pivot with RMB). So I practically never use Selection Orientation.
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You just have the process a little mixed up. Maybe my explanation was confusing.
I presume the "F1" key is set for the streamline tool "Set manipulator"
So you press/hold "F1"(which calls "set manipulator") then LMB(or RMB) on snap point to set manipulator position/orientation. Anytime you now have the manipulator in "manual" it will move back to that set position, or it should do unless there is a problem with your config.
Steve, F1 is Streamline Engine Tools>>Object/Mesh Pivot
I did a tool search for "Set Manipulator" in All groups and could find no such tool.
I would like to align my pivot in subobject mode with selections for position/orientation. Then switch over to object mode and have it stay in the same spot. I don't want to align it manually in subobject mode.
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Guys I've got this solved. Thanks for your patience.
Once you've set your manipulator in suboject mode. Just hit F2 (which is all manual modes) and then it will stay in the same position when you move to object mode.
I also learnt a whole much of new tools such as transfrom list also which will come in useful.
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Hi Kevjon,
Steve, F1 is Streamline Engine Tools>>Object/Mesh Pivot
Ah, right, that is what is causing issue. You should not need to move the "Object/mesh Pivot" unless you need, for example, to make Pivot alignment for "Mirror"
I did a tool search for "Set Manipulator" in All groups and could find no such tool.
You will find it in "Edit > Customize > Streamline Tools" > Built-in tools"
I would like to align my pivot in subobject mode with selections for position/orientation. Then switch over to object mode and have it stay in the same spot. I don't want to align it manually in subobject mode.
You do not want to move/set the "Pivot", you need to "Set Manipulator"
Go to "Edit > Customize > Streamline Tools" > Built-in tools" > "Set Manipulator" and give it an hotkey.
Once set, press(hold down) the hotkey for "Set manipulator" and "LMB" on snap point to set manipulator position (or you can MMB to just set orientation to snap point, or RMB to set both position and orientation to snap point), then release hotkey.
That manual position will now be stored(because you have option "Remember Manipulator Manual pose" set)
Which ever "State" the manipulator now changes to (object/selection etc), when you change the manipulator state back to "manual" the manipulator will move back to that stored manual position.
I hope my explanation is understandable.
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Steve, I've learnt a lot from you posts (and Andrei) which will stand me in good stead.
I'm all sorted now. I just need to align the pivot how I want in subobject mode whether it be by selection, manual or any other method.
Then run Streamline Engine Tools >> Manual Pivot and the manipulator will stay where it was in subobject mode when moving to object mode. This tool is already set up in Andrei's interface. It is the M in the Set Pivot section. Pressing F2 doesn't work.
If this proves flawed down the track, I'll look into Setting up a custom button that operates "Set Manipulator" but from what you describing it looks like the manual way of setting the manipulator which is not what I want.
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F2 does not work?
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F2 works, but not to hold the manipulator position/orientation when switching from subobject to object mode.
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Looks like I spoke to soon. When trying to transform using the manipulator in object mode it jumps back to some other position. Looking into Steves solution.
You do not want to move/set the "Pivot", you need to "Set Manipulator"
Go to "Edit > Customize > Streamline Tools" > Built-in tools" > "Set Manipulator" and give it an hotkey.
Once set, press(hold down) the hotkey for "Set manipulator" and "LMB" on snap point to set manipulator position (or you can MMB to just set orientation to snap point, or RMB to set both position and orientation to snap point), then release hotkey.
That manual position will now be stored(because you have option "Remember Manipulator Manual pose" set)
Which ever "State" the manipulator now changes to (object/selection etc), when you change the manipulator state back to "manual" the manipulator will move back to that stored manual position.
I hope my explanation is understandable.
Unfortunately I can't find that. It is possible that Andrei has customized this area and now it is not there. I can't find it in tool search either.
I think I'll have to go to plan B which is align my workplane to the selection and then align the pivot to centre of the workplane. Its a little more convaluted than I'd like but it works.
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kevjon, why you need all this? It is too complicated, there are many simple ways to avoid all that troubles with Subobject to Object. Try to find simple solutions instead of complicated.
Personaly I work a lot with NVil and never even thought about this problem. I have no need because I use very simple pivot management and if something is complicated I try to not have deal with this.
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Then run Streamline Engine Tools >> Manual Pivot
There is no such thing as "Manual Pivot"
"Pivot" and "manipulator" are not the same.
Just use "Set manipulator" when dealing with manipulator, it will save confusion.
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Unfortunately I can't find that. It is possible that Andrei has customized this area and now it is not there. I can't find it in tool search either.
One of the problems with using 3rd party config.
Which config are you currently using? I will have a look at the setup.
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kevjon, these are 2 simplest way to make what you want:
https://monosnap.com/file/HXqViPgJWwko10ZHvxNQ0QKcjaYDMI
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kevjon, why you need all this?
To align my manipulator position/orientation in a precise way that is not possible in object mode. My work is mainly aircraft or hard surface vehicles, so I generally work in a precise way using blueprints and measurements. If I was doing concept art or character work, then I agree you with you, there would be no need for this request.
@ Steve
Yep, your quite correct. I keep confusing the two in my text which is no doubt confusing you guys.
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Hi Kevjon,
I have just looked at one of the configs, "Set Manipulator" as been changed/re-named" to "Manual Pivot"
That adds to confusion, as that tool does not set the "Pivot" it sets the "Manipulator"
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One of the problems with using 3rd party config.
Which config are you currently using? I will have a look at the setup.
Samardac config 2.5 http://nvil.info/ (http://nvil.info/)
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kevjon, these are 2 simplest way to make what you want:
https://monosnap.com/file/HXqViPgJWwko10ZHvxNQ0QKcjaYDMI
Andrei, thanks, I like the first option. But doesn't work for me the manipulator ends up at the scene origin rather than aligned to the face selection. I assume this is because I've mucked around with the pivot and manipulator so much that I get a different result. This would also happen on a real project rather than just a scene with one cylinder.
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Hi Kevjon,
I have just looked at one of the configs, "Set Manipulator" as been changed/re-named" to "Manual Pivot"
That adds to confusion, as that tool does not set the "Pivot" it sets the "Manipulator"
Ok, if you have any suggestions how it can be resolved, I will adjust my interface accordingly.
In the meantime, aligning the workplane to the subobject selection and setting the manipulator orientation/position to world is working well for me.
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Kevjon,
Andrei, thanks, I like the first option. But doesn't work for me the manipulator ends up at the scene origin rather than aligned to the face selection. I assume this is because I've mucked around with the pivot and manipulator so much that I get a different result. This would also happen on a real project rather than just a scene with one cylinder.
If you press F2:
1. Click in any free sapce it will set pivot to world origin
2. If you click LMB+RMB it will set pivot to center of selection.
Also:
3. If you press LMB it will set not only POsition but Orientation too.
I made video:
http://take.ms/mcoue
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There is no such thing as "Manual Pivot"
"Pivot" and "manipulator" are not the same.
Just use "Set manipulator" when dealing with manipulator, it will save confusion.
Steve could you give me some advice here? As I only model very simple objects in Nvil and never build complex scenes with numerous objects/meshes/instances I believe I could come along completely without using the dual concept of Pivot and Manipulator. Do you see a way to only reposition/orient the Manipulator and to essentially deactivate the influence of Pivots? Is there a function which makes the Manipulator position always be the Pivot as well?
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Kevjon,
Andrei, thanks, I like the first option. But doesn't work for me the manipulator ends up at the scene origin rather than aligned to the face selection. I assume this is because I've mucked around with the pivot and manipulator so much that I get a different result. This would also happen on a real project rather than just a scene with one cylinder.
If you press F2:
1. Click in any free sapce it will set pivot to world origin
2. If you click LMB+RMB it will set pivot to center of selection.
Also:
3. If you press LMB it will set not only POsition but Orientation too.
I made video:
http://take.ms/mcoue
Thankyou Andrei, thats brilliant and going to save me a lot of time trying to orientate myself in 3D space !
At first I couldn't get it to work like you showed in the video.
Just incase others have the same problem, you need to make sure polygons snap is on or else you'll get different results than Andrei shows.
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Yes you have to enable snap options like, vertex or polygons to make Set Pivot tools to know where to snap.
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Hi polyxo,
Steve could you give me some advice here? As I only model very simple objects in Nvil and never build complex scenes with numerous objects/meshes/instances I believe I could come along completely without using the dual concept of Pivot and Manipulator. Do you see a way to only reposition/orient the Manipulator and to essentially deactivate the influence of Pivots? Is there a function which makes the Manipulator position always be the Pivot as well?
From an end-user point of view, the object/mesh pivot should be nothing more that a reference point for the object/mesh position/orientation. But due to tools/functions to move that objects pivot, and tools/function that use that objects/mesh pivot, it adds to confusion.
If we go back several years, Nvil was "Voidworld" and Voidworld was also an animation programme. In animation programmes you can have bone structures that are set in a parent>child relationship. Each bone would then have a pivot point set between parent/child. So there was a need for each object to have its own pivot, and for the user to be able to set that pivot to correct location.
We can also look at why Nvil as "Objects " and "Mesh". Again years ago, when creating an object for animation there was a need to split that object into separate mesh. Each mesh would then be assigned to a bone, that bone would then influence that mesh in animation. [Of course, it no longer works that way, we now (and for several years) have single (uni-) mesh, and it is polygon groups that are assigned to bones(with weights)]
So why still have "object/mesh pivots" and "Mesh" in a modeling programme? Only reason I can see is due to legacy implementation and IStonia not making change.
When using "Manipulator" there are options that control its current position/orientation, they are put forward such as "Object", "Selection", "Manual" etc. When the manipulator position/orientation is set to "Object", the manipulator moves to selected object pivot location/orientation. That does not make the manipulator the objects pivot, it only makes the manipulator adopt the objects pivot location/orientation. Of course, the manipulator acts as a pivot-point for rotation, but still, it is not the object_pivot.
So from end_user point of view, forget about "pivot" unless you use tools/function that require it.
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Thank you Steve for this thoughtful explanation – I'm sure this info it's also helpful for others.
Admittedly I was already aware of most of the theory – only the practical part gets badly in the way :). Indeed having this duplication is one of my mayor gripes with Nvil:
I have always avoided modelling inside animation programs, because one inevitably has to deal with convoluted object handling strategies which were designed for animation – even if one doesn't want to animate at all. Now in Nvil we couldn't even animate, even if one wanted to...
On the practical part of avoiding to ever touch pivots...
What commands do require setting them up? I would guess instancing/arraying submeshes of objects, what else?
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Good post Steve, thanks.
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Hi Kevjon,
.............so I generally work in a precise way ......
I do not want to make this more complicated, but you need to be aware.
If we use your first post as example. You show a cylinder with end polygon selected. You are then using tool/function to move manipulator to polygon selection. If you use "Snap > Polygon Center" or "Set manipulator > LMB+RMB", by default, the manipulator will move to selections geometry center. If you actually want to move to "Bounded box" center, you need to enable option "Edit > Options > Subobject Selection Center Is Bounded Box Center"
For objects position. If manipulator is set to position "Object", the manipulator will move to selected objects Pivot location. If manipulator set to "Selection", manipulator will move to selected objects bounded box center.
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Hi polyxo,
On the practical part of avoiding to ever touch pivots...
What commands do require setting them up? I would guess instancing/arraying submeshes of objects, what else?
The instance creation tools, they do not directly use object pivot.
Instance > Array: Uses objects bounded box center for position and current manipulator orientation for direction.
Instance > Radial: Uses manipulator by default, but has option to use object pivot
Instance > Spline: Uses world origin.
Sub_meshes: They are supposed to have their own pivot, but attempting to access or control them is problematic. Maybe the mesh pivots where fully controllable at one time, but now they just add to confusion.
I am not sure what uses object pivot, I would need to find time to check. My current config/workflow avoids various tools/functions because of (various) issues.
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Hi Kevjon,
.............so I generally work in a precise way ......
I do not want to make this more complicated, but you need to be aware.
If we use your first post as example. You show a cylinder with end polygon selected. You are then using tool/function to move manipulator to polygon selection. If you use "Snap > Polygon Center" or "Set manipulator > LMB+RMB", by default, the manipulator will move to selections geometry center. If you actually want to move to "Bounded box" center, you need to enable option "Edit > Options > Subobject Selection Center Is Bounded Box Center"
For objects position. If manipulator is set to position "Object", the manipulator will move to selected objects Pivot location. If manipulator set to "Selection", manipulator will move to selected objects bounded box center.
Thanks Steve, very handy info.
In practice, I found locating and orientating the manipulator, pivot to complicated between subobject/object modes. I wrote my first composite tool to align the workplane to the selection, make it active and set the view to top, set the manipulator orientation and position to world. I need this to align a lot of rigging wires on a WWI fighter aircraft I'm working on. Each rigging wire has several mesh items and they are trick to align with struts and other parts of the airframe.
You post to polyxo on instances Ive copied for future use. Very useful info there also.
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Thank you Steve!
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I wrote my first composite tool to align the workplane to the selection, make it active and set the view to top, set the manipulator orientation and position to world.
You will still have the same issue between "Geometry center" and "Bounded box center"
An example to help explain.
Here I have a default Cylinder primitive, with top polygons selected. The geometry is evenly spaced/symmetrical. So when calling "Set manipulator > LMB+RMB" or "Workplane > Align to selection", by default, the manipulator/workplane will move to geometry center. But because geometry is evenly spaced/symmetrical, the result will be center of the outer circle of selection, and will be what is expected.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img661/4742/DTqI1j.jpg)
If I add extra geometry to cylinder, in this case edge_loops to some edges, then call those tools again. You will see, by default, the result is probably not as expected, as the workplane/manipulator is at geometry center, and the geometry is not evenly spaced/symmetrical.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img537/2480/gyVkoD.jpg)
I am just making sure you are aware of this, as it can confuse at times.
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Thanks for that, I never considered that problem. It is a likely scenario in a real model.
Like most things in 3D, complicated.
I just tested my workplane composite tool with this checked and works as expected now. Great Tip about turning this on. "Edit > Options > Subobject Selection Center Is Bounded Box Center" ?