NVil Forum
General Category => Community Help => Tutorials => Topic started by: kenmo on December 13, 2013, 03:45:06 pm
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Presently use Wings3D and Hexagon to create models for my Vue Complete scenes and renders and I'm surprised to see no tutorials to introduce Nvil noobs to this modeler...
Thanks kindly...
Ken
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Anyone?
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Hi Kenmo. At the present time, you'll probably find that you need to just do a lot of hunting through these forums to find what you are looking for (look for posts by Steve, Passerby, and RubberDuck in particular (many other useful posters as well)). First, however, make sure you check out the NVIL help documentation in the app. It doesn't include everything, by a long shot, but a lot of the most important stuff is there. If you look up NVIL tutorials on youtube, there are a few short, very basic videos which may or may not be useful (they're silent since the creators, it appears, do not speak English as a primary language). Tutorials are very much in short supply at this point, but SubD modelling skills that you learn in other softwares can be carried over easily. Additionally, feel free to ask questions here - I've done so and found that someone is always pretty quick to respond. In my personal opinion, I too would love to watch more tutorials on NVIL - I use it sparingly in my daily workflow, but I'll admit that I've spent a ton of time messing about in the software, customising my interface, customising my hotkeys etc.. there is SO much power under the hood that I still don't probably know even half of what is there, but the lack of thorough documentation means I'll likely end up sticking to more familiar territory for quite some time (little time for experimentation when I'm "on-the-clock"). So, it may all be a bit noob unfriendly to say, but you'll get out of NVIL what you put into teaching it to yourself. I'll tell you what, though, I've used 3ds MAX for ages and for pure modelling I choose to use NVIL far more often these days. Best of luck!
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Thanks kindly for the reply. I use mostly Hexagon but since Daz took over the app from Evoia Hexagon has gotten unstable, especially since Hex 2.5... I also use Wings3D but now very rarely. I also have Groboto ver 3.0 but the lack of updates and poor forum traffic is a big turn off. The forum was recently hacked and has since disappeared. It was also disclosed recently that Darrell (developer of Groboto) has cancer...
I started a thread on Renderosity asking what is a good replacement for Hexagon and many suggested Blender.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2875177
But I can not stand the Blender interface. I ve also considered Silo but it too is very unstable on Windows 7 like Hexagon. Another poster at Renderosity suggested Nvil but not having any tutorials and very little activity on the forum is a big turn off to me...
Someone posted this query on the forum asking what is the difference between Nvil and Void World and the reply was a list of patches and bug fixes. I too would like to no what the difference is between the two... It's a very big turn off when posts are not replied to or when replied to are not answered...
Sorry but because of my two prior concerns I can not at this time justify any investment (time or money) in Nvil.
Thanks kindly for the reply... But for now I'll stick with Hexagon...at least I know what I have and DAZ does try to answer questions...
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As Passerby replied on the thread you mentioned, there is no difference between Voidworld and NVil. NVil is just the new name/rebrand for Voidworld and, of course, tons of updates have occurred between then and now.
As for the compromising scenario you mention with other software, I feel your pain, and I've come to NVil for the same reasons. Ok, my situation was a little different because I got spoiled by using big name professional software years ago, and just couldn't be satisfied with the Hexagons and Wings of the world, nor yet could I afford to have personal home licenses of the pro studio software I use. These days, I don't animate, texture, or anything else... the only reason I need a subD tool at all is for poly modelling basic assets - 95% of my work is done in ZBrush, so I find NVIL to be a good companion, though its certainly not the most immediately-accessible user-friendly software I've ever used. Still, the infrastructure is all there, and the options are so vast that you can pretty much hammer it into whatever kind of poly modelling tool you want - the only catch being that you already have to kind of know what you want. I think some more options of professionally-designed preset layout/hotkey schemes could go a long way towards making NVIL more immediately accessible.
As for Blender, I too have struggled with it for years - there is a lot that I find appealing, but in practice have found it completely unintuitive. Times are changing, though, and when I tried it again this weekend, tweaking a few options (changing Select to left mouse click, and the hotkey presets to "Blender 2012 Experimental"), I found that I was getting on with things pretty well. So Blender may be worth another look again. Like NVIL, it appears that with some customization it could be pretty powerful.
Regards,
J
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Thanks kindly...I really appreciate the reply...
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Another poster on Renderosity has the same concerns as myself...
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2875073&page=2#message_4124934
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Hi kenmo.
First of all, thanks for trying NVil.
Thanks for the link! I read it through and very happy to see yarp chose NVil by the end.
I am very sorry for the lack of tutorials. I may try to make some introdution tutorials myself when I have time and the right ideas. Currently I am focusing at making 64 bit version which is a huge task.
The "Void World Tips #1" is not a tutorial video. It is a video someone used to show me how to improve the viewport navigation design.
To do an edge loop selection, just left double click an edge. To select a range loop, click one edge then double click the other edge. There are more selection tools, see "Help > Contents > Modeling > Selection Tools". There are no guis for these tools so they are not obvious to new users. I don't know how you do it in other apps.
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Sorry tried as you suggested... basically this app is useless without the proper documentation or tutorials. It has to be one of the most unintuitive apps I've ever tried...
People who use Nvil inform me it is rock solid but that is meaningless if one does not even know how to perform a simple task like an edge loop or ring select. They also tell me it is a good stepping stone for people who use Silo3D or Hexagon.
In Hexagon or Wings3D it is a simple task to do a loop select or ring select... In Nvil I have no idea... Also left clicking in Nvil brings up a mess of world balloons...
It may very well be more stable than Hexagon but it's ease of use is light years behind Hexagon...
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(...)Currently I am focusing at making 64 bit version which is a huge task.
Oh my God! These are great news!
Keep up the good work, IStonia! :)
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Sorry tried as you suggested... basically this app is useless without the proper documentation or tutorials. It has to be one of the most unintuitive apps I've ever tried...
Different people have different instinct way of thinking. It seems the way of NVil's design does not go in your way. Which app you can go straight into without reading/watching any doc/video? I'd like to see if I can get some inspiration from it. By the way I may have to tell you that I am the only person working on this project and I am working a fulltime job so you may understand why there is little tut and doc.
People who use Nvil inform me it is rock solid but that is meaningless if one does not even know how to perform a simple task like an edge loop or ring select. They also tell me it is a good stepping stone for people who use Silo3D or Hexagon.
In Hexagon or Wings3D it is a simple task to do a loop select or ring select... In Nvil I have no idea... Also left clicking in Nvil brings up a mess of world balloons...
I have shown the way for selecting edge loops in my previous post. I can't think of any better or faster way of doing that. If any other app can do it better, I'd see if I can improve it.
... Also left clicking in Nvil brings up a mess of world balloons...
Does it happen every time?
It may very well be more stable than Hexagon but it's ease of use is light years behind Hexagon...
I heard that Hexagon is good at easy of use before. I'd like to know why from you and other Hexagon users.
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In Hexagon or Wings3D it is a simple task to do a loop select or ring select... In Nvil I have no idea...
There is info in the help file as mentioned above by IStonia. But here is some info:-
In Nvil UI:-
Visual tools:-
1. Loop select
2. Edge ring select (full, grow and step)
(http://i.imgur.com/JlHifcp.jpg)
In the drop down selection menu:-
(http://i.imgur.com/l3lLoAM.jpg)
You could use mouse with hotkeys:-
Edge loop select:- LMB(Left Mouse Button) select first edge of loop, then press "L" for edge loop selection.
Edge ring selection:- LMB(Left Mouse Button) Select first edge of ring, then press "H" for ring edge selection.
You can also just use mouse for selection:-
Edge loop select: Double LMB(Left Mouse Button) on edge for edge loop selection.
Edge ring select: Double MMB(Middle Mouse Button) on edge for ring edge selection.
Also left clicking in Nvil brings up a mess of world balloons...
I have not seen that.
Are you possibly referring to the RMB(Right Mouse Button) bringing up the radial menu as in this screenshot?
(http://i.imgur.com/JiHqei1.jpg)
If yes, then that can be disabled by option in View menu:-
Disable the "Default RMB Activation Enabled"
(http://i.imgur.com/eHqyb7u.jpg)
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By the way I may have to tell you that I am the only person working on this project and I am working a fulltime job so you may understand why there is little tut and doc.
Most of the Hexagon3D, Wings3D, Blender, Vue, etc tutorials are made not by the developers BUT by the end user community.
Quote from: kenmo on Yesterday at 11:28:20 PM
... Also left clicking in Nvil brings up a mess of world balloons...
Does it happen every time?
What a second? You're the developer and you're asking me if it happens every time? YES...it does. And it is quite confusing...
I have no doubt you are a fantastic programmer.... BUT if Nvil is going to frustrate newbies your application no matter how stable it is will scare off newbies like me...
Would it not be more important to increase your user base before developing a 64 bit version? You increase your user base by making it easy for them to use your app. one way is through documentation and tutorials...
A 64 bit version may please the existing users but it is doing NOTHING to win over newbies...
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I have not seen that.
Are you possibly referring to the RMB(Right Mouse Button) bringing up the radial menu as in this screenshot?
Yup that's it... and it is most annoying...
Here's a screen capture of the edge and ring tools in Hexagon. No hunting through the menus. Easy to find. I very dislike the hunting through a bizzare menu system with those very annoying balloon menus... Frequently used tools should be within easy access...
In Nvil the edge select and ring select are in two different locations? Why not have them beside each?
And NO I'm not interested in customizing the ui when I'm trying to learn how to use the app. I'll customize it IF I decide I want to use it and not before...
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I have not seen that.
Are you possibly referring to the RMB(Right Mouse Button) bringing up the radial menu as in this screenshot?
Yup that's it... and it is most annoying...
Here's a screen capture of the edge and ring tools in Hexagon. No hunting through the menus. Easy to find. I very dislike the hunting through a bizzare menu system with those very annoying balloon menus... Frequently used tools should be within easy access...
As in the first screenshot in my last post, the "Edge loop select" and "Edge ring select" are in the Visual tools, which is by default in the main UI, so no need to go to menus. I was just showing the various methods of selection. Just realize, that the Visual tools are context sensitive, so changes depending on selection mode, so for example, loop selection will show in the visual tools when in edge selection/face selection mode
As for Hexagon, Yes, I know it well, I used it for over 6 years before finding Nvil about 18 months ago.
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Ok... I create a simple cube but I can not do a ring select via the visual tools as it doesn't work... However if I go through the menus it does...
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Ok... I create a simple cube but I can not do a ring select via the visual tools as it doesn't work... However if I go through the menus it does...
I have not used the visual tools for a long time, but on checking, that looks like a bug.
For now, use the double MMB(Middle Mouse Button) on an edge, or select an edge and press "H".
I will put in a bug report.
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There is no doubt IMHO Nvil is a very powerful modeling app but I'm having a difficult time getting my mind around the toolset.
We can hammer back and forth here all night and then again when another newbie has similar questions...
Are there any video tutorials for newbies? A simple YES or NO is all I'm asking for...And if it is YES, where are they?
again these would be an introduction to the tools and where they are located and not an intermediate or advanced user showing off his modeling skills... Don't get me wrong, i do appreciate those types of tutorials but not when I stumbling around in a new app...
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I have not used the visual tools for a long time, but on checking, that looks like a bug.
For now, use the double MMB(Middle Mouse Button) on an edge, or select an edge and press "H".
I will put in a bug report.
You're kdding me, right? A newbie finds an unreported bug in Nvil? How many users are there of this app? Perhaps instead of looking at a 64bit version a bug fix would be in order as well as some documentation and tutorials....
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Are there any video tutorials for newbies?
Not that I know of, I have never looked for any.
I was going to make some, but when I put forward the format I would use, it was dismissed as not wanted.
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You're kdding me, right? A newbie finds an unreported bug in Nvil? How many users are there of this app? Perhaps instead of looking at a 64bit version a bug fix would be in order as well as some documentation and tutorials....
I do not know anyone who uses the visual tools for selection methods, there are simpler easier ways of selecting as I have put forward.
Documentation is quite good compared to other applications I have seen/tried/used. If you had looked through the help file, you would not be asking how to select edge loops/edge rings.
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I do not know anyone who uses the visual tools for selection methods, there are simpler easier ways of selecting as I have put forward.
I am sorry but IMHO your way navigating through menus is not easier. As a Hexagon user the visual tools are more closely aligned to the way i am used to doing so in Hexagon.
Kindly refer to my screen capture.
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Looks like a fellow member on Renderosity is looking forward to a 64 bit version but has stayed away from Nvil for the same reasons as me...
See post by cjd
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2875177
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I do not know anyone who uses the visual tools for selection methods, there are simpler easier ways of selecting as I have put forward.
I am sorry but IMHO your way navigating through menus is not easier. As a Hexagon user the visual tools are more closely aligned to the way i am used to doing so in Hexagon.
Kindly refer to my screen capture.
I do not navigate through menus.
For edge loop selection I double LMB on edge. For edge ring selection I double MMB on edge(info included in my other post). No menus used at all. Why move the mouse to menu when not really needed.
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As I explained to IStonia above when he suggested the same, "IT does NOT work for me"... Nothing happens when I select an edge and double left mouse click or double middle mouse button click....However at least the menu navigating does allow me to do a edge or ring select. With the visual tools only edge select works...:(
And to be perfectly honest with you I have no more intentions of spending anymore time with this app with it's terrible UI until there is either training videos or a revamp ui... And read the links I posted above. I am NOT the only newbie with these concerns...
Now spend some time with your loved ones...
Merry Christmas...
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As I explained to IStonia above when he suggested the same, "IT does NOT work for me"... Nothing happens when I select an edge and double left mouse click or double middle mouse button click....
You double LMB on an edge(the same edge) to edge loop select.
You double MMB on an edge(the same edge) to edge ring select.
So, for example, move you mouse cursor over an edge, when the edge high_lights(by default it changes from white to yellow), double LMB to edge loop select.
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Wow...how many times must I post...IT DOES NOT WORK for me... sorry but I can not be any clearer than that...Now we are done... I am through with Nvil until the changes I posted above happen and if they do not my life will continue...
I do not want the frustration of dealing with Nvil when there are simpler alternatives... This is a hobby. My day to day job as a network system admin causes my blood level to rise even after close to 30 years with Novel NetWare, Suse Linux and now MS Windows Server....
This is a hobby....I want to create art and not have my blood pressure explode and I find Nvil is doing this....
Cheers and Merry Christmas....
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OK... I thought I was a bit hasty last night in my reply. So I decided to give the ring select, edge select with the double mouse click a try...
I created a cube and selected one of the top edges and double clicking with the LMB did nothing. Next I selected one of the vertical edges and did a double MMB click and the ring did in fact become selected. I then connected the selected ringed edges. I selected one of the new edges I created. LMB clicking on the new edge did in fact select a loop of the new edges.
Is this a bug or just plain inconsistency with the edge select tool?
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I created a cube and selected one of the top edges and double clicking with the LMB did nothing. Next I selected one of the vertical edges and did a double MMB click and the ring did in fact become selected. I then connected the selected ringed edges. I selected one of the new edges I created. LMB clicking on the new edge did in fact select a loop of the new edges.
Is this a bug or just plain inconsistency with the edge select tool?
Edge loop selection stopping at N-pole is nothing out of extraordinary. How it's supposed to decide where to go on this junction?
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OK... I thought I was a bit hasty last night in my reply. So I decided to give the ring select, edge select with the double mouse click a try...
I created a cube and selected one of the top edges and double clicking with the LMB did nothing. Next I selected one of the vertical edges and did a double MMB click and the ring did in fact become selected. I then connected the selected ringed edges. I selected one of the new edges I created. LMB clicking on the new edge did in fact select a loop of the new edges.
Is this a bug or just plain inconsistency with the edge select tool?
Edge loop selection will stop at vertex with an odd number of connected edge.
With your example, Hexagon is exactly the same and you will see the same result.
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I just created a cube in Hexagon and did the same test and you are absolutely correct....Hex does the same... Sorry about that...but I could have sworn I've done it before in Hex but I guess not... :-[
Here are some of my free stuff on ShareCG. Mostly created in Hexagon and/or Groboto with texturing in 3DCoat and/or UV Mapper Classsic.
http://www.sharecg.com/kenmo
Many thanks for the help. Appreciate it...
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I'm gearing up to make some tutorials... What kind of stuff are you looking for, it may help me in what I have planned and with what I decide to go forward with?
I was thinking of starting with the complete basics of polygon modelling after going through the process of setting up the interface to fit the needs of myself so that you or anyone watching can find what they feel comfortable with and go with that. Does this sound like something that would interest you?
I'm currently trying to workout a process to build up to a full character tutorial but I am unsure how simple to start and what level to gradually progress to before starting on the character stuff, and I am also still in the process of making some Icons to use for my custom layout and such, so this won't be instant but it will be coming soon! I really enjoy using this software...
Give me some of your ideas and I'll try and work with that based on what I have in mind already.
Kind Regards
Patrick
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I was thinking of starting with the complete basics of polygon modelling...
Hi Patrick, good to hear! I am franky not sure though if starting with "complete basics" was the most effective way to get people going - at least not for the very first video tutorials available for Nvil. The web already bursts of tutorials on general concepts of polygon modelling - it even for beginners doesn't take much to transfer principles from videos made in Maya, Modo or Blender. The underlying geometry creation logic is completely the same in all these apps, no?
Nvil, I feel appeals to people with previous modeling experience anyway, so one might give "general concepts" a somewhat lower priority - such could happen later if still considered needed. Also as Nvil is so crazyly customizable there's not "the way" to do a certain task in Nvil.
What I found far more important were explanations of the functionality of every single Tool as they thus far are very sparingly documented. Just create a plane and showcase all options of the currently chosen tool, while using visual tools and when using the Space and Caps / Home-Key options. The outcome would not look very sexy adimitedly but I feel such was very important.
Also there could be a whole series about the customization logic and the Streamline Tool setup. What kind of customization should take place in Tools - what is better customized through Streamline Tools? What are all Event Types, what does Redirect mean, what are the Emulation Keys, what can one do with Composite Tools? How can I start playing around with custom settings without having to worry that I mess up everything? While I can enumerate all this - I even after considerable time of using Nvil couldn't answer all this competently.
It would really be great to win someone like Steve, who knows these details very well to aid with tutorials of this kind.
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Hi Patrick, good to hear! I am franky not sure though if starting with "complete basics" was the most effective way to get people going - at least not for the very first video tutorials available for Nvil. The web already bursts of tutorials on general concepts of polygon modelling - it even for beginners doesn't take much to transfer principles from videos made in Maya, Modo or Blender. The underlying geometry creation logic is completely the same in all these apps, no?
It is indeed pretty much the same and very transferable, the reason I was considering starting from the basics and going onward was simply to make it more accessable to someone who is new to modelling or should I say make it appeal more to those people, and build up to the tutorials that would allow for the more experienced modellers to use the later ones. I am perhaps not explaining very well but I am trying to figure out what type of things to best create as I can model and I can use Nvil to a decent degree and it does need some tutorials... I have not delved too much into the custom tools myself yet but I know how to make some nifty things and I will be making some videos on that for sure.
Nvil, I feel appeals to people with previous modeling experience anyway, so one might give "general concepts" a somewhat lower priority - such could happen later if still considered needed. Also as Nvil is so crazyly customizable there's not "the way" to do a certain task in Nvil.
I felt the same way about how it's so custom and such, that is why I was going to make a video on showing how I have my setup and how I created it, and why... That way I can show people new or expereienced the way in which I will tackle certain problems I occur when modelling.
What I found far more important were explanations of the functionality of every single Tool as they thus far are very sparingly documented. Just create a plane and showcase all options of the currently chosen tool, while using visual tools and when using the Space and Caps / Home-Key options. The outcome would not look very sexy adimitedly but I feel such was very important.
This is good to hear, I could do something like this without much trouble, the way I was going to go though was to in a way keep it simple and through the course of the tutorials and the build up to more complex topics I was planning on introducing certain tools at the start of the videos and presenting what type of things we will use and do to accomplish the model at hand. You're simply suggesting videos on the features of the tools as a separate thing though, right?
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I appreciate the response, its good to hear from the community that I will be trying to cater for, perhaps I can skip the complete basics then, my reason for not wanting to do so before was simply because some people (even people that I know) have trouble transferring tutorials from one application to the next... I don't understand the problem but perhaps this is because I've been doing this for so long now.
Kind Regards
Patrick
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I like the idea of explaining with examples the toolset in Nvil. My frustration is finding where the tools are. No offense to anyone but the user interface in Nvil is too confusing, especially for someone who uses Hexagaon.
Cheers
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I like the idea of explaining with examples the toolset in Nvil. My frustration is finding where the tools are. No offense to anyone but the user interface in Nvil is too confusing, especially for someone who uses Hexagaon.
Cheers
I think that is why most of us customize it to what we need :P lol but I've taken what you and the other person here have said and I will work something out!
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Thanks kindly....
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Wow...all this talk about tutorials and still NOTHING aimed at Nvil newbies...