NVil Forum
General Category => Feature Requests => Topic started by: Tiles on October 03, 2012, 06:12:42 pm
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I hope i haven`t overlooked something vital here. But it seems that Weld just works in Vertice mode and in a cumbersome way. For Target Weld I have to activate the tool, i have to mark the already selected vertices again. And have to weld them in a one by one basis. Group Weld seems to be buggy. I end in remaining vertices when i select more than two. Which means i have to repeat the performance at a two by two basis. And end in something that isn`t really at the centerpoint.
On top of that i get a message for the remaining vertices that lacks of the close button. May i renew my request for a status bar here? That`s an excellent place for such messages. Blender has it at the top for example.
Anyways. I think both weld methods are not really good.
What about a Weld command that works with one key, plus not only in Point mode, but in Face- and Edge mode too? A weld tool that welds the vertices of the selected Elements together. As weld methods i would provide the last selected vertice or by coincidence or in the center of the vertices. That`s easier to handle. And you even save one tool that way, the target weld.
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For Target Weld I have to activate the tool, i have to mark the already selected vertices again. And have to weld them in a one by one basis
Target weld would be a one to one weld.
Are you using the streamline weld(S) tool?. Move your cursor over the the vertex you are going to weld to a target(do not select it, just highlight the vertex with the cursor), press "S" (possible targets will be highlighted) move your cursor to the target, you will see the cursor change shape, release the "S" key. Target weld made.
Group Weld seems to be buggy. I end in remaining vertices when i select more than two
Which tool/options are you using?
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Tiles, there are million ways people want to do weld operations.
Check this, subobject modes > Geometry > Common Commands n Toools > Collapse, edge mode > Geometry > Collaps loop/ Collapse ring. Don't blame me about the naming. Not guilty.
On top of that i get a message for the remaining vertices that lacks of the close button. May i renew my request for a status bar here?
You don't need a close button. You can either click the message dlg or hit a key like Space to close it.
A status bar eats out your space and sits there most of the time for nothing.
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Are you using the streamline weld(S) tool?.
I use the one that is in the Visual Tools toolbox for now. That`s the one i have found. The two modes of this tool could already be unioned into one mode without any loss. Select two vertices, use last selected vertice mode, and you have the Target weld method. Select two or more vertices, use weld at centerpoint method, and you have Group weld. That`s just one tool, not two.
Tiles, there are million ways people want to do weld operations.
But why use several tools for the very same thing? All your welding tools can be unioned into one tool. Without loosing anything, and still provide the million needed ways. You just need some settings then. The benefit is that everything is in one place now. And not spread across several modes and tools.
Collapse Edgeloop for example is nothing else than Group Weld, performed in Edge mode.
Don't blame me about the naming.
I still do, sorry. Nvil simply has some very uncommon tool names. And that is a big problem of Nvil. At least in my eyes.
Now, while the development, is the time to change that. When you have the gold version out, and the customers are using the software, then it`s too late. They will have a bigger hurdle to jump into the software with the current tool names. And that scares people away.
A status bar eats out your space and sits there most of the time for nothing.
What really eats up space is your monster big and space wasting toolboxes :)
The Blender Status bar is at the top, right besides the menu. This space is empty and unused anyways. The trueSpace status bar is at the bottom, eating exactly 23 pixels in height. I can live with that with my 1920 resolution. Another thought, Firefox blends in the status bar when it`s needed. But i hate the flickering of this popping up and hiding. So i´ve installed a plugin that keeps the status bar visible.
Have a look at the screenshots. They are made with a 1920 resolution.
The Blender UI provides everything necessary in reach, and leaves nevertheless enough space for modeling. It`s a full featured 3D app.
The trueSpace UI provides everything necessary in reach, and leaves nevertheless enough space for modeling. It`s a full featured 3D app.
The Nvil UI doesn`t leave enough space for modeling when i really put everything needed into space. And that`s just a modeler.
I wouldn`t say give up your toolbox UI. It`s a great concept. But the content of this standard toolboxes is very ugly placed and dimensioned. It wouldn`t hurt to learn from common software packages when it comes to the UI. They have a huge user base where they learned from.
Anyways. It`s of course your decision what you make out of my reports and suggestions. In the end all i can do is to tell you and point towards the problem zones.
Sorry for being a pain :)
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With the UI examples your really just building a Strawman argument. Since open every thing up in blender l, and there is even less UI space, and you purposely opened up things in nvil that are redundant. Such as scene info and the HUD, or the manipulation window and the nurmical input.
I have access to everything I would need with this layout, which is very space saving.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2360554/Fourms%20Stuff/Void%20World/screens_20110828121624.png)
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"use the one that is in the Visual Tools toolbox for now. That`s the one i have found. The two modes of this tool could already be unioned into one mode without any loss. Select two vertices, use last selected vertice mode, and you have the Target weld method. Select two or more vertices, use weld at centerpoint method, and you have Group weld. That`s just one tool, not two."
I can't see the advantage it can bring in. You have to select two vertices before you can weld them. Right now, you just click one vertex then click the other, done.
Why you see it as two tools? If you want to do target weld, just click two vertices. If you want to do group weld, just marquee select them then click the button. You don't need to select a mode first.
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Strawman? Are you sure? As told, this was a shot from a 1920 resolution. How should one work at a even smaller resolution? It`s already hard to work with Nvil at my notebook with its 1600 resolution. Let alone at a notebook with 1333 pixels resolution, which is still very commmon.
I made a quick manipulation using the trueSpace Info box to show what i mean with wasted space. Because that`s a nice example how to save lots of space. And i haven`t even resized or fitted here anything like you can do in Blender. There you can scale every UI element to your needs, seamless.
It uses the same font size, but the element is after this manipulation nevertheless just half as big as the one from within Nvil before the manipulation. With some time and patience you could reduce the other panels in an equal way.
Hm, maybe we should split the UI improvement discussion into another thread. It mixes up with the weld stuff here. What do you think?
I can't see the advantage it can bring in. You have to select two vertices before you can weld them. Right now, you just click one vertex then click the other, done.
I have to activate the tool, and to click at the two vertices anyways. So where`s the benefit from your method? I do the same with my method. I select two vertices, hit weld, done. I may need to change the method, that`s true. But then the benefit is still to have just one tool where formerly were four. Which reduces the time to find the tools and frees space. In trueSpace i have one button for weld, target weld, collapse edgeloop and collapse edgering. The tool works in all modes and does what your four tools does. That`s the advantage, less cluttered :)
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"I have to activate the tool, and to click at the two vertices anyways. So where`s the benefit from your method? I do the same with my method. I select two vertices, hit weld, done. I may need to change the method, that`s true. But then the benefit is still to have just one tool where formerly were four. Which reduces the time to find the tools and frees space. In trueSpace i have one button for weld, target weld, collapse edgeloop and collapse edgering. The tool works in all modes and does what your four tools does. That`s the advantage, less cluttered"
How does TS handle threshold welding? What is collapse edgering? How can you weld two vertices to middle position or to last vertex position with just one button? I guess it may depends on your click at the left part or right part of the button, or maybe a modify key, or maybe in vertex mode or edge mode it acts differently? Does TS have edge ring collapsing?
The input fields you suggested seems too short for me. It may cause trouble if some one have to deal with larger precise numbers. How about the xyz lable click/drag functions?
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How does TS handle threshold welding?
In tS there is no threshold welding. That`s why i talked about settings.
What is collapse edgering?
My fault, sorry. I meant Collaps loop/ Collapse ring.
How can you weld two vertices to middle position or to last vertex position with just one button?
By settings.
To my shame i have to tell you that the weld tool has no settings in trueSpace as i have thought. I mixed that with the Heal tool, wich is called Remove doubles in Blender. But the Heal tool has four settings for that: by coincidence, first vertice, last vertice, and center point.
I guess it may depends on your click at the left part or right part of the button, or maybe a modify key, or maybe in vertex mode or edge mode it acts differently?
Settings for the tool again. That`s what you already have anyways. I would suggest to make a dropdown box for the mode in which the weld tool should work. That`s space saving and clear.
Does TS have edge ring collapsing?
No. It collapses the edge ring by a click at the weld tool. tS collapses everything, in all modes. and welds the affected vertices of the selection together.
The input fields you suggested seems too short for me. It may cause trouble if some one have to deal with larger precise numbers.
Works perfect for me since years. The precision that gets displayed is limited to three digits after the point. But you can of course enter very large numbers here too. The good thing is, the size of the input edit boxes is not fixed. It scales with dragging the toolbar wider or smaller.
When the input field is too short for you then make it larger. And shorten the words at the front part to a contraction. I think everybody understands that Loc Rot Scl is meant for Location Rotation and Scale. And it could also be a good idea to make the edit boxes scale with the panel. That way you can scale it bigger when you work with big numbers.
How about the xyz lable click/drag functions?
That`s indeed a bit of a problem. The size to place a button to do so could indeed become a bit small here. I don`t see a reason why you shouldn`t be able to do that with just the edit boxes though. I think Blender has such input boxes that has slider functionality too. A single click and drag slides, a double click enters the edit mode.
But that`s a detail solution which i keep in your hands. This surely needs a bit thinking and tinkering around with it. The main point that i wanted to show is that the current graphical Ui could benefit a lot from a cleanup. This panel was just a good example to make it more clear :)
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How can you do loop/ring collapsing in one button? If There are two adjacent loop edges selected, both loop and ring collapsing are valid.
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I use the one that is in the Visual Tools toolbox for now. That`s the one i have found.
You should probably spend some time looking at the tools/functions more, rather than restricting yourself to the first tool you find.
The two modes of this tool could already be unioned into one mode without any loss.
Not quite sure what you mean by "2 modes"?
If you are referring to the "Weld" and "Weld to nearest" then, for basic functions, I would describe:- "Weld" is for target weld/average center weld, and "Weld to nearest" is for "Heal vertex". But with the added options, they are more powerful.
Select two vertices, use last selected vertice mode, and you have the Target weld method.
[With no selection made] Enable [visual tools]"Weld" click first vertex, click target vertex.
Select two or more vertices, use weld at centerpoint method, and you have Group weld.
Select 2 or more vertex, enable weld > ignore threshold > weld
That`s just one tool, not two.
There is only 1 weld tool in the visual tools, it just as multiple options.
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Collapse Edgeloop for example is nothing else than Group Weld, performed in Edge mode.
No it is not.
Collapse edgeloops would collapse each separate edgeloop. Group Weld would weld all the edgeloops together.
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I give up. At least i have tried. Thanks for listening.
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yes making things use less space is good, but my comment about the strawman was do to you making a extreme case by having every possible thing open at once, which is almost never needed, and than not using any of the organization tools available like tabbing windows, or auto hide.
than comparing to blender, without every absolutely everything open.
If I have any need for a window it is 1 click away, and i always have between 1676x844 and 1422x844 for my viewport size, and my monitor is only 1680x1050 so nothing huge
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making a extreme case by having every possible thing open at once.
I showed the extreme case where everything needed is open at once. Without the need to dig too deep.
Just for the sake to lead this part of the discussion to an end, even when it wasn`t really my point:
Earlier versions of trueSpace had an equal UI concept to Nvil. All tools opened in its own toolbar. Which leaded to an equal problem like shown in the Nvil shot. No space left for modeling when everyting needed is open. But latest trueSpace displays all settings in the stack, and not longer in its own panels. I have really nearly everything possible opened here. The modeling tools at the left, and the settings and hierarchy overview at the right. There is no way to clutter the UI with even more tool panels. Besides to open new 3D Windows, and alternatively to make them to timeline or Link Editor Windows. Both things that Nvil doesn`t have.
Blender has a somehow equal concept to the trueSpace stack. Just that in Blender you have to dig a bit more in subtabs and menus. Here i don`t have the way to place my tools at the left. But also here there is no real way to cover the workspace with subpanels. All needed stuff is in the Properties Panel.
Nvil doesn`t have such a stack. The Visual Tools panel is what comes closest to the stack concept of trueSpace and Blender. You have to do by hand what works somehow automatically in trueSpace and Blender. To open the panel with the settings that you need. Which makes it harder to save space by concept. Because that way you tend to open as much panels as possible at once so that you don`t have to dig all the time. That`s why it is this important to make the panels as space saving as possible. So that you can place everything needed in reach without the need to scroll too much.
You see, there is not a single grain of strawman to find here. Even when we look from this angle.
Anyways, this wasn`t my initial point. I know that you will not redo your whole UI concept at this point anymore. That would indeed be crazy. I talked about saving space, not killing the panels and redo the UI completely. Sorry when i explained it wrong, and you got the wrong impression here.
making things use less space is good
And that was my point. Seems that my way to show the need was a bit irritating though.
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"I don`t see a reason why you shouldn`t be able to do that with just the edit boxes though. I think Blender has such input boxes that has slider functionality too. A single click and drag slides, a double click enters the edit mode."
I don't want to lose the righ click function. There is no way I can override the text box right click behaviour. Even if I can, I will lose the copy/paste functions.
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Hm. You could still do as you did before: place a little button in front of the corresponding edit boxes. It doesn`t need to contain a letter anymore, so you can make it smaller than before. Because x,y and z are already labeled at the top of the edit box group.
Plus make the edit boxes scalable relative to the panel. That way the user can set it to the width that he needs to display enough digits for his needs.
Another solution i see is to place a tiny slider below or above the edit boxes. But that would mean to loose space again. I would prefer solution one.
You could even free lots of space with the current existing arrangement. Simply make the edit boxes a few pixels smaller in height, and don`t leave a gap between them in the vertical direction. This advice counts for all other labels, edit boxes and buttons in the other toolbar panels too. There`s lots of space that can be set free that way.
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Tiles, you can use the Collapse tool to do target weld as well now.
The UI is done.
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Thanks for this :)
There seems to be a quirk though. I´ve made a cube, have selected the top face, switched to edges mode, which has selected the edges at the top. A clear edgeloop. Then i tried to use the Collapse tool. And nothing happens.
And i am still unhappy of how Weld and Collapse works in general. It is no one click solution as in trueSpace and Blender, and is split into different modes and tools. It`s still cumbersome to use in comparison.
That`s how blender handles it, as shown in the shot. No extra collapse menu, no extra weld menu. And available from all modes. Edges, vertices and faces. You make a selection, be it a face, a edge or vertices, call the Merge command under the vertices submenu (or press a hotkey), which brings you this menu besides the mouse, then one click more and you are done.
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really dont get what you find so hard, just use the streamline weld, tap with multiple verts selected to collaspe, or hold it while hovering a vert to target weld.
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There seems to be a quirk though. I´ve made a cube, have selected the top face, switched to edges mode, which has selected the edges at the top. A clear edgeloop. Then i tried to use the Collapse tool. And nothing happens.
I follow your steps and the four vertices at the top are welded into one vertex.
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Hi IStonia,
It depends on which collapse tool is used.
"Geometry > Collapse Loop" will not collapse a (fully selected)closed edge loop, only an open edge loop. It will also collapse partial edge loops belonging to the same loop into separate collapse points.
"Geometry > Common Commands n Tools > Collapse", will collapse a closed(or open) edge loop. It will collapse the full or Partial edgeloop(belonging to the same edge loop) into one average center point.
Not Tools I use, but can see it being somewhat confusing.
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I made a video.
http://youtu.be/zKTAEJmapo0
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Hi IStonia,
In your vid, when you change from Polygon to edge selection(on the box), you bypass the "Geometry > Collapse Loop" which is the tool most will see first and try to use, and I as I mentioned, that tool will not collapse a fully selected closed edge loop.
Is it intentional that the "Geometry > Collapse Loop" tool does not collapse a fully selected closed edge loop?
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Yes, it is intentional. First, it won't weld to the selection center. Secondly, the result is not wanted in most cases. Third, you can do it with the general Collapse tool.
I will move the 'Common Commands n Tools' menu up to just below 'Create' menu.
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just use the streamline weld
Thanks for the advice. But the streamline weld is where? Is it the one in the Visual Tools in the Vertex Mode? Is it the Weld to Nearest in the menu? The Weld Vertex in the Smarttips? Is it a customized Streamline tool that i have to setup first? Something with an odd name again maybe? It is definitely something that i have overlooked it seems.
See, that`s the problem that i try to point out since several postings. There is no single weld/merge in general like in all other apps. There is streamline weld, there is collapse, there is weld, weld vertex, there is ... . And every submethod works in another mode, under its very special circumstances, and with its very own setup. It`s already so complicated and divided that even iStonia is in trouble with the try to reproduce a quirk with a clear advice. Because there are too much methods and special cases already. That´s the part that makes it so cumbersome, hard to use and time consuming.
That`s like having several independend rotate commands too. All in their special modes, all with their special cases and circumstances that you need to remember and take into account that you can get it to work. Where just one tool in all modes is what is really needed.
It may be a bit exaggerated, but you already need a guide and forum help just to do weld in Nvil. The current weld methods bundle in Nvil is definitely by classes slower to use that the single weld method in Blender for example. With the very same results. Just that the Blender way is more flexible because it works in all modes.
Please don`t try to divide weld into even more tools, don`t add even more special cases to fix your dilemma. The only valid fix for the dilemma is to union it all into one tool that works in all modes. That`s what i have initially suggested and would still suggest here.
Sorry for being a pain at this issue. But i think this one is important.
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The streamline, one is there out of the box but I couldn't tell you what key since I changed almost all of the key binds.
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Thanks Passerby :)
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Tiles, I think the main difference between strealine tools and visual tools is how they are opened and closed.
For visual tool, you click a button/menu or hit a key to open it. Once finish, you need to click a button/menu or hit a key to close it.
For streamline tool, you press down a key and hold it. Use mouse buttons to perform the actions. Once finish, release the key to close the tool. For example, for target weld, in vertex mode, your press down and hold S(default setting) key, click at a vertex, move your curosr over the second vertex, release S key, done. You can try performing target weld 10 times continuously with this method in Nvil then do the something in Blender and tell me which one is faster. If Blender is faster, then please produce a video so I can learn from it as I don't know how to use Blender and I don't have time to learn.
I think, streamline tools also provide a faster way to switch between tools. But the downside is it needs hotkeys and that's what you don't like.
Back to the welding issue. Yeah, one botton tool to satisfy all the welding needs is a very good idea. How about one botton tool to satisfy all the modeling/animation/rendering needs. lol.
You said Blender's weld tool is very flexible, can you produce a video to show it? I would like to see how it works in all modes and all the functionalities it provides.
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Back to the welding issue. Yeah, one botton tool to satisfy all the welding needs is a very good idea. How about one botton tool to satisfy all the modeling/animation/rendering needs. lol.
You haven`t understood a single word. And you laugh at me. Not funny :(
You said Blender's weld tool is very flexible, can you produce a video to show it? I would like to see how it works in all modes and all the functionalities it provides.
The better method would be to simply download Blender and try it by yourself. It`s free. And you don`t believe me anyways. The screenshot already shows what welding methods are available. This menu is available from all modeling modes. A video wouldn`t show this much more besides the tools in action.
Honestly i am tired to run against a wall here. Do whatever you want to do. I give up.
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Hi IStonia,
Is it intentional that the "Geometry > Collapse Loop" tool does not collapse a fully selected closed edge loop?
Yes, it is intentional.
After looking more at the collapse tools, I find that the "Collapse Loop" does in fact collapse a fully selected closed edge loop, as long as it is part of a multiple selection that contains an open loop selection.
First, it won't weld to the selection center. Secondly, the result is not wanted in most cases.
How is NVIL calculating the collapse point(s) for the selections with the "Collapse Loop" tool?
It is one thing to state a specific known result is not wanted in most cases, but an unpredictable/uncontrollable result is better how?
Regards,
-Steve
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Just for the sake to finish this issue, and because you asked for a video, here it is.
http://www.reinerstilesets.de/ext/voidworld/blendermerge.mp4
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People consider you wall since it looks like your trying to drive the app away from streamline tools and radial menus to a all GUI approach, and a lot of the users here are he because of the streamline tools and its likeness to silo.
also your comments about speed have a lot to do with knowledge of the program, im pretty sure you can post a video of you making any shape in one of the apps you mention, that i could accomplish faster in NVil with my workflow and setup.
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Passerby, it is understandable some people don't like hotkey workflow because they may really find it hard to remember hotkeys. Even in extreme case, people may have problem with their fingers. My righhand middle finger is partially disabled.
Tiles, many thanks for the video. I don't mean to laugh at any one. Please understand I feel frustrated too when I don't know how to understand people's idea.
From the video, I think NVil's general 'Collapse' can basically do every thing you shown in the video. Correct me if I am wrong. In Blender, you have to choose an option after clicking the 'Merge' menu. Is it really necessary? It just slows things down imho.
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http://youtu.be/MP5gFV8WyLI
this all uses 1 key in my setup, than i show the gui way, the olny real issue i see is that collaspe is 2 menus levels deep, which is slow, so maybe a massive menu reorganization needs to be looked at at somepoint, but this can be nullified with the user toolbars.
also when i was doing target welds, it is extremely fast compared to most apps, since no selection has to be made, and i don't have to click.
hover vert, hold m drag to target vert release, and done.
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People consider you wall since it looks like your trying to drive the app away from streamline tools and radial menus to a all GUI approach, and a lot of the users here are he because of the streamline tools and its likeness to silo.
No. Merging several subtools into one tool has nothing to do with how you deal with this tool then. But with workflow speed. To deal with one general tool that works in all modes is simply faster than to deal with several specialized subtools which just works in special modes.
also your comments about speed have a lot to do with knowledge of the program, im pretty sure you can post a video of you making any shape in one of the apps you mention, that i could accomplish faster in NVil with my workflow and setup.
What about knowledge of other 3D apps? I can compare. I have Nvil here, i have trueSpace here, i have Blender here. And i know how to use them, not only how to open them. I can compare them. I also know Silo a bit. Even when i`ve never really dived into it. That you have learned to scratch your right ear with your left hand much faster than me to scratch my right ear with my right hand may be nice. But doesn`t change the fact that scratching with the right hand may be better for most of us. Even for you.
Learning the app costs time. And the steeper the learning curve the more time it costs. Clicking the wrong button or pressing the wrong hotkey costs time too. Thinking in what case you are, and which tool you need to use for this special case costs also time. And the more special tools and cases you have the more time it costs you to think about your current special case and what tool to use.
The best modeler is not the one with the most tools. The best modeler is the one that has the fewest tools that nevertheless gives you the fastest way to do the bread and butter work. That`s why i still work with trueSpace instead of Blender. That`s why i have stopped working with Nvil, and went back to trueSpace. It has the more limited toolset, but i am faster here.
I have one button, one hotkey for weld in tS. Okay, it has no settings. It doesn`t have target weld or collapse. So this may not count. But it`s to 99% enough for my needs.
And i have one hotkey and a mouseclick in Blender. That`s two actions. But since you always have one hand at the mouse still a very fast method.
In Nvil i have several special cases tools with settings to adjust for what is one mouse click in tS and a hotkey and a mouseclick in Blender. And that`s simply much slower to use. No matter if you use streamline tools, radial menu or traditional menu/button UI.
I don`t want to take you something away. I am just very good at finding and pointing at problems. I want to help to improve the app where possible. Not to cut something away. Extending is the key. Sure, i want to add a graphical UI when possible. But i do not want replace the other ways of useage. It`s something that can be used, not must be used. Like your streamline tools can be used, but not must be used because there is also the radial menu.
Have a look at the new User toolbars. It gets happily used. Have a look at Blender and its development. It was "streamline" before 2.5x. But this hotkey only UI was what has scared thousands and thousands of users away. Including me. This has changed with 2.5x. The "streamline" way is still possible though.
Why not create something that is even better than Silo? For me it`s the mix that works fastest. Some things i do by hotkey, some things i do by menu or buttons. I am surely not alone here. And even you will be in trouble to remember the 300 + hotkeys that are possible in Nvil.
Regarding the wall and protecting the app from other influences, do you know Unity? Sure you do. Do you know Gamecore too? That game development tool was at its time equal powerful than Unity. But its fans have protected the product to death. They scared everybody away who said anything against the software. They scared everybody away who had proposals and introduced ideas for improvements. I got even flamed for reporting bugs there, which is something i have never seen again. The result can be seen at the Gamecore page now. A dead forum, no users left. Even making it free hasn`t changed anything. I always wonder why the page is still up.
Is this what you want for Nvil? Your favourite app, but just YOUR favourite app?
also when i was doing target welds, it is extremely fast compared to most apps, since no selection has to be made, and i don't have to click.
hover vert, hold m drag to target vert release, and done.
No selection? No click? Please. Pressing hotkey = pressing hotkey. Just that i press the hotkey after selection. Hover weld = first selection. Target weld = second selection. Nothing else than in other apps. And surely not faster.
What is slower though is that in Blender or trueSpace i can select a face or edge, and weld it with the same hotkey together, no matter in what mode i am. While in Nvil i have to switch to the right mode first. And think about choosing the right hotkey then.
Tiles, many thanks for the video. I don't mean to laugh at any one. Please understand I feel frustrated too when I don't know how to understand people's idea.
Thanks for clarification. I know this feeling too. And i know that i can be a pain. I can be very straight forward and dedicated. Sorry bout that.
From the video, I think NVil's general 'Collapse' can basically do every thing you shown in the video. Correct me if I am wrong.
That`s the part i doubt. Because then you could remove the other methods ;)
In Blender, you have to choose an option after clicking the 'Merge' menu. Is it really necessary? It just slows things down imho.
No it is not necessary. But it`s one valid way to solve this. The menu appears under the mouse, and the last used menu item stays under the mouse cursor. You just need to click when you want to use the same method than before. Which is fast. Hotkey, mouseclick, done. Of course i would wish to have this mouse click not necessary. But they have solved it that way. The benefit is all is in one tool, and all works in all modes. You have solved it the way that you have split everything into several subtools that works in several modes.
Hm. You could solve it by an appearing option panel in the visual tools. First hotkey calls the panel. Pressing it again performs the weld. That would be a fast way when you want to perform the same weld method again and again. And gives you the way to switch to another method when needed. Maybe even make it so that it welds with the first hotkey pressing anyways. Which nevertheless calls the options so that you can do an undo and change the method. Maybe implement a way to switch the weld method with another hotkey too.
You could even do the following: rename all the current subtools to weld. And use the same hotkey for it then. They are mode dependand anyways. Then add a way to do all weld jobs in all modes.
The crucial part for me is to have just one weld tool, have it working in the same way and to have it available in all modes. Which is currently not the case. How to do this is a detail question then, where the practice will show the best way. All i can do is to give suggestions, and to show how other big packages have solved it. I think i have said it before that sometimes a look at other software packages is a good idea.
Hm, pretty long story for the fact that i wanted to stop this discussion. I better stop now.
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You always seem to think I'm attacking your whole arguments, which I'm not. Also your comment about needing to be in the right componet mode is wrong, I did everything on the video you posted, useing only 1 tool, and I did it all from, vert, edge, and face modes.
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You always seem to think I'm attacking your whole arguments, which I'm not.
And you always think i will harm your app. Which i`m not. What i seem to feel though is that you are strictly against any changings, in fear that your app could become a second Blender or trueSpace. Again. This is not my intention. I just see what goes wrong and could be improved. I am very good at that.
useing only 1 tool
So what are the other Nvil collapse/weld tools good for then?
And we still talk about the standard weld here by using a hotkey? Or have you made your own custom streamline tool here? I have created a hotkey for weld in the vertex mode. I am in face mode. I select a face. I hit the weld hotkey. And nothing happens. No panel, no reaction. I am in edge mode, hit the hotkey, and nothing happens. No panel, no reaction. I am even in vertex mode, hit the hotkey, and nothing happens besides the panel in the Visual tools opens up. Where i have to choose the method, select my vertices again, hit the apply button, and then it finally welds. Now that`s a fast workflow ...
Collapse maybe? I have made a hotkey for Collapse from the edge tools too. I select a face, switch to Edgemode, and now guess what doesn`t work.
I don`t even bother to describe my experiences with the other methods.
We talk definitely about totally different tools here when you know one weld tool that does all the things that the whole bunch of weld/ collapse tools in Nvil is meant for. So where is it? Show me please.
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Collapse maybe? I have made a hotkey for Collapse from the edge tools too. I select a face, switch to Edgemode, and now guess what doesn`t work.
The "Edge Shortcut Tools > Collapse Loop" does not work on a single closed edge_loop (I mentioned that in an earlier post).
The only Collapse tool that will work in all sub_object modes is the "Subobject Shortcut Tools > Collapse" That will work as you expect.
Do not shoot me, I am only the messenger :)
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Do not shoot me, I am only the messenger :)
Thanks for reminding me to put my feelings aside. They don`t belong here, indeed :)
The only Collapse tool that will work in all sub_object modes is the "Subobject Shortcut Tools > Collapse" That will work as you expect.
And thanks also here. Now we are talking, this works like in trueSpace and Blender. One click or one key. Sadly that`s the only weld tool that i haven`t found and tried, i definitely have overlooked this part of your answer. Else the discussion would`ve been much much shorter :/
It is nevertheless a specialized subtool again. It lacks of Target Weld. It lacks of Weld at Centerpoint. Weld to 3D cursor is sometimes very useful too. But Nvil doesn`t have a 3D cursor anyways. What`s good is that it works in all modes. That`s how it should be. This weld tool should be the one that you find immediately, not the specialized tools that fills the gaps of it.
I still think that there are a few weld methods too much in Nvil. But anyways.
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It is nevertheless a specialized subtool again. It lacks of Target Weld.
It allows 2 preselected vertex to be welded to last selected.
Weld to 3D cursor is sometimes very useful too. But Nvil doesn`t have a 3D cursor anyways.
Maybe a request for collapse to pivot point? Although that would probably be another tool.
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It allows 2 preselected vertex to be welded to last selected.
So we have in fact nearly everything what is in the other tools already, haven`t we? Besides the collapse at center point :)
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Tiles, you need to change your glasses. The 'Collapse' tool has been mentioned many many times in the posts, the videos and the update notes.
Now, please don't miss this new one, Geometry > Common Commands n Tools > Weld(General).
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Tiles, you need to change your glasses. The 'Collapse' tool has been mention many many times in the posts, the videos and the update notes.
That was because i thought we talk about another collapse tool. There´s more than one in your software :)
Now, please don't miss this new one, Geometry > Common Commands n Tools > Weld(General).
Aaaand taken. Will have a look as fast as the download is finished. Thanks for the improvements :)