NVil Forum
General Category => Feature Requests => Topic started by: mightypea on May 17, 2013, 01:29:13 pm
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I use(d) the lattice quite regularly in Max, and would like to see it in Voidworld as well. It's great for dense meshes, and for manipulating shapes that don't lend themselves well to soft-selection adjustments like mechanical sub-d objects.
Here's a video of a Blender addon that does it roughtly how I'd want to see it:
http://vimeo.com/65410369
Make a selection, run the lattice tool and edit the created lattice points to deform the selection. After dropping the tool the lattice is gone, no fooling around with external objects for a lattice or anything like that.
Have a default lattice tool and one with options. The default should use the last used settings (number of lattice subdivisions for instance).
I suppose multiple orientations should be taken into account, so how about this:
-averaged orientation
-object/mesh pivot orientation (location doesn't make sense I don't think)
Any feedback from other users?
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Also, it would be incredibly useful if you could set it to be (for lack of a better term) 1-dimensional. Meaning, it'd kind of be like temporary bones. You could have it so you can set certain subdivisions to 0 and it'll only create one control-point in the middle, like so:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17715/vw_lattice.jpg)
The right one has 2 subdivisions for x, y and z, but the left one has 0 for x and y, 2 for z.
Ofcourse the size of the lattice would remain the same as it would otherwise be, but you'd just control it with less lattice-points. In this case, the top one one the left would control everything that the top 9 would otherwise control.
edit: those values are wrong, ofcourse. Add 1 to everything :D So you'd have 3x3x3 for the right one, and 1x1x3 for the left one. If you were to work with subdivisions, you'd only be able to have multiples of two!
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Yes! lattice! please add this feature ;D
While i was modeling characters using silo, i often take my mesh into maya to adjust the proportion with lattice. Lattice will be great.
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+1 :D
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Wanted to bump this now that we have 64 bit and can open dense meshes.
Also, Houdini allows for polygonal mesh to be used as the lattice base shape...with every vertex behaving like a soft selection. This is an effective way to have custom lattice deformer that can follow the contours of the dense mesh. The typical cube lattice can get into issues when working with complex shapes like characters or tubing.
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+1
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As I understand it a lattice deformer is particularly useful when one may turn its effect on and off and further tweak it at any time. Just having a cage which destructively alters the mesh probably wasn't desirable to anyone.
Fulfilling this feature therefore required Nvil to go procedural, one needed a concept and GUI for this, requests for further deformers (bend/twist/taper...) certainly wouldn't take long. I'm not at all against having deformers but their introduction certainly opened a big can of worms. Some would then like to animate them and ask for a renderer and for extension of the Bone-Toolset, yada, yada...
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..........requests for further deformers (bend/twist/taper...) certainly wouldn't take long.
You can already bend/twist/taper in Nvil.
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You can already bend/twist/taper in Nvil.
I guess this is somehow doable by using the Spline tools, right?
What I meant was "classic" modifiers which stayed life, can get turned on an off and also can get combined and re-ordered in the sequence of their application.
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You can already bend/twist/taper in Nvil.
I guess this is somehow doable by using the Spline tools, right?
Yes.
I will put a post together to show simple example.
http://voidworld.cmcproductions.co.uk/index.php/topic,2260.0.html
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I needed to taper something in only one axis, but the spline modify method is not sufficient for that! It tapers in all directions. So I tried in Maya and got quickly and intuitive to the result I wanted (either lattice or flare deformer). I really tried in NVil, but it was not possible to achieve the same result.
So now I think it's a good idea to implement intuitive deformers, like other apps have, too. Lattice would be great.
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If this ever gets implimented, I would suggest a user defined polygonal cage as the deformer and not the traditional voxel style cube cage.
In this way we can use Tubes, Spheres, low poly LODs to deform dense geo.
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I needed to taper something in only one axis, but the spline modify method is not sufficient for that! It tapers in all directions.
It is similar to other applications that have a taper modifier. They usually only have option to change the main axis the taper is to made along, with the taper then made in the 2 remaining axis.
Blender does give options to Lock axis from taper, but limitation is that taper is always made along Z axis (lock possible on X or Y axis).
So I tried in Maya and got quickly and intuitive to the result I wanted (either lattice or flare deformer).
Those are not specifically taper modifier, just a case that tapers can be made.
So now I think it's a good idea to implement intuitive deformers, like other apps have, too. Lattice would be great
Maybe we will get a lattice deformer in Nvil version 2.
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I think the Spline Modify tool can be used to do the taper deform by using the Scale/Radius modify curve. Make sure the Axis Line and the Path Curve are the same. I am not sure.
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Spline Modify is not a specific taper modifier either, but a means to an end. I find the Spline modifier is powerful, but it is not intuitive. It's an advenced feature. But still, it's not powerful enough to restrict the scaling to specific dimensions. I made you guys a comparison:
(http://s14.directupload.net/images/140321/5a8x6zqk.jpg)
Note how the mesh gets squashed in all directions in NVil because it's lacking control over that. So I can't get the result I'm after, which is not good.
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But really I want a result like this:
(http://s14.directupload.net/images/140321/yl9gszmd.jpg)
You know how it goes, you model something and at the end you have the idea to modify the shape. You didn't model everything with the end result in mind from the start and don't want to start over again.
So how would I get this deformation in NVil?
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By adding in extra points to the spline, i can get almost to the shape I want. I like that, because it let's me place the controls for the deformation myself. But the squashing is still an issue I can't get rid of.
Also, I don't fully understand what effects the transformation of the spline vertices in "vertical" directions have.
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Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Mar-22-14.rar
Two scale factor inputs are added. If you want to disable one axis' scale, set its value to 0.
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Two scale factor inputs are added.
Very nice, much better than simple locks.
Only quick tests, but looking very good. Excellent work.
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Hi IStonia,
I was looking more at the new "Scale" functions in the "Scale modifier curve".
As it is, I would say you may as well just have an axis lock on the 2 axis(0 or 1), as nothing more is added beyond that which cannot already be done.
From looking at the results, any scale entry not 0, will first apply the full "scale modify curve" to the mesh, then scale the resulting mesh by scale amount. You can do that currently, by adding scale modify, then scaling manually.
When I first looked at the change(only looked at 0/1 scale at the time), I thought the new scale options would scale(or move) the curve modifier, then the new curve modifier(for the axis) would be applied to the mesh. That way you are scaling the modification, which IMHO would be more correct.
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Just a thought.
What about having 2 scale modify curves, one for each axis. (No scale modify curve on an axis, no modification.)
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I don't have much time at the moment, so I quicly recorded a video that hopefully conveys my confusion about the usage of spline modify. It's just not that intuitive. If you have 10mins time, see for yourself: http://youtu.be/UUF8I4hu6Cc (http://youtu.be/UUF8I4hu6Cc)
when does it do what and what are the dependencies and why are they there? (Like rotating to align to a specific axis)
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A very quick explanation:-
The "Scale modify curve" needs to be set to world X/Y axis. The full distance(length) of the modify curve in "Y" equates to being the same length as the axis. So the start in Y of the modify curve = start of axis, and end of modify curve in Y = end of axis (it does not matter the actual length of the modify curve)
The distance in X from world X axis is used for modification amount.
Sorry, I know my quick explanation may not be helpful (easy to make scale modification once you know how, but still not too easy to explain).
I will see if I can find time later to post examples.
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While looking, there appeared to be a bug between axis/path curve, when they are not aligned to main axis (even when axis/path are same curve).
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But now cannot reproduce. How very annoying.
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The "Scale modify curve" needs to be set to world X/Y axis.
For an intuitive workflow, this is just the first problem. Why does it need to be aligned to that?
I just quickly fired it up again to take a picture. How can it be that I get so many different results, while making such easy changes like just changing orientation or the length of the spline. It's not intuitive at all! And that needs to change.
(http://s7.directupload.net/images/140328/lswf9yu2.jpg)
I don't even know what's happening there. One time it gets squashed in the middle (symmetry is off), after changing the length of the spline to half it tapers to the end, but somehow mirrored to the spline. When there's rotation on the object and splines, the taper twists and in another case there's suddenly stepping...
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One more: The only time I have success* with it is, when the object is rotated and there's no rotation on the spline objects.
(http://s14.directupload.net/images/140328/ayd6ersm.jpg)
I had to create them "in line", otherwise it wouldn't have worked. I just put them side by side for better display.
1. everything in world axis: nothing happens. It would, if I moved a Spline vertex of the scale spline in both axes (X&Y). One is not sufficient. The result is not predictable.
2. The object and the spline objects are rotated. The scaling is predictable, but there's twisting.
3. Theres no rotation on the spline objects. Result is somewhat predictable (*as long as there's not vertical diversion from the path spline). But if I were to insert a new spline vertex and move it in Y-direction, it gets real crazy as it seems to do what the "move" modifier does.
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The "Scale modify curve" does not work in the way you thought. You need to create and keep the scale curve in world XY plane. When computing scale value, each sample point's world x value is used to be divided by the first point's world x value.
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The "Scale modify curve" does not work in the way you thought. You need to create and keep the scale curve in world XY plane. When computing scale value, each sample point's world x value is used to be divided by the first point's world x value.
I'm sorry, but this is what I am talking about: not intuitive! And I still don't get it. I tried to do what you said (keeping the scale spline to XY) and came up with this:
(http://s7.directupload.net/images/140329/3ywyzjlu.jpg)
How am I supposed to control anything with this?
So what I imagine what it should be like is this:
(http://s7.directupload.net/images/140329/ae6igr7f.jpg)
Unfortunately that only works under curious circumstances (desribed above, object rotated and so on).
So instead of taking the XY-plane something to calculate the scale value I should be able to align my spline along the mesh and the mesh adjusts its dimensions according to the spline. How could this work? Well, I'm no expert, but it could take the offset from the path spline (you get 1 perpendicular vector) and set this to be the scale. To determine what's 100% scale you would need to take the original dimensions into account somehow, maybe by getting the vector from the path spline to the outer mesh boundaries or bounding box on its way to the scaling spline or something. Another issue I can imagine is that the scale spline would have to be created in way to be in the same plane as the path/axis in order to determine the up-vector (for scale dimension restrictions), workplane could do the trick, or taking first and last vertex of the scale spline as reference.
But still, in the worst case I'll end up with 3 different splines or more (path, axis, scale), and still it's not as intuitive as a lattice/mesh deformer.
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The mesh(to deform) and the Axis can be anywhere, at any orientation, in 3d space.
When creating the "scale modifier curve", you create it as if the Axis was on the world Y axis. The amount of modification is then made in the + direction of the X axis (from world X 0).
It does not matter the length of the "scale curve modifier" in the Y axis. It is calculated as if its first point being at start point of axis, and its last point being at the end point of axis.
(http://i.imgur.com/Z6l2Gkx.jpg)
with modification added:-
(if you find the mesh twists, it is only following the path tangents, you can disable the option "Use path curve tangent spaces" if needed)
(http://i.imgur.com/S7d62rO.jpg)
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I made a video for this
http://youtu.be/cWOdLsV4I2A
Yes, it is not as intuitive as lattice deformer. I have no idea when I will be able to implement the lattice deformer. But at least you can do something that can be done with lattice deformer. Also the "Spline Modify" tool can do things that lattice deformer can't.
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Thanks steve & IStonia!
When creating the "scale modifier curve", you create it as if the Axis was on the world Y axis.
Ah, so that was the critical information I was not aware of. Before you tell me to, I deliberately didn't take a look into the manual to evaluate the intuitiveness of the tool.
I find it easier to have my modifier alongside my mesh and of the same length to see which part of the mesh gets affected how. So this is a very indirect process.
When computing scale value, each sample point's world x value is used to be divided by the first point's world x value.
So this means, that if my first point's world x position is 0, there's division by zero and I get very ugly results.
It's a tragic thing, that you don't have the ressources to spend more time on NVil and I don't expect you to. Replenishing your energy after a full day of work is vital and from my standpoint has priority.
So I guess this topic can now go back to discussing ideas about a far future lattice deformer.
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I find it easier to have my modifier alongside my mesh and of the same length to see which part of the mesh gets affected how.
If I wanted to work that way, I would simply align the mesh to Y axis. (store its original position/orientation in the transform list, if I wanted to move it back).
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Moving the mesh just temporary is not always desirable, for example the mesh I want to modify could be part of a structure consisting of a other meshes as well and I don't want them to overlap.
But another solution could work, if it was made to work: IStonia, could the scale spline be made to work in relation to a workplane if "use workplane as input space" is activated? At the moment that doesn't work, but would make a good alternative. I could just align the workplane to my model and create the scale spline on it so it is aligned in Workplane XY and along my mesh (if path is a straight line, of course).
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http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Mar-27-14.rar
I have added a new "Scale modify curve". So Y/Z scale can be controlled by separate curves. Same thing to "Lathe" and "Slide" tools.
If view navigation space is set to workplane space, the workplane XY plane is used for modify computation instead of world XY plane.
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The idea of having an optional second scale curve is really nice! In my first attempt it works great, you'll ust have to remember to set the view navigation space to workplane. Thanks a lot!
But there are still some bugs.
This happened, when I played with the Lock settings. I will get to the condition later, when I have more time.
(http://s14.directupload.net/images/140401/httwcsyg.jpg)
And a minor thing: Shouldn't the "ScaleY" read "ScaleX", since I'm scaling it in x-direction?
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I have added a new "Scale modify curve". So Y/Z scale can be controlled by separate curves. Same thing to "Lathe" and "Slide" tools.
If view navigation space is set to workplane space, the workplane XY plane is used for modify computation instead of world XY plane.
Wow, excellent. Many thanks.
Have you been getting any sleep?
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On first quick tests.
When in "Workplane space" and creating a "Spline", the mouse cursor and cursor showing vertex position to be created, are not together, they move in different directions.
The scaling while in Workplane space appears still to be working to world space if lock active.(or 2 scaling curves are used, and one is zero scale)
While in workplane space, with workplane active, if using an orthographic view, only the top/bottom view(perp to workplane) can be used to create a spline. The other ortho views cannot be used(cannot draw spline)
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Minor points.
It was mentioned before, but would it be possible to show what space we are currently working in (world/workplane). I do have user buttons setup to change the space used(View navigation space > set navigation space)), but they do not show if active.
Hotkey for second spline? Currently "S" is for scale modifier and selects the first (Y). Maybe "Alt+S" for second(Z) scale modifier curve?
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Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Mar-29-14.rar
The modify curves can also be placed in YZ plane.
If in workplane space, "WP" will appear top-right.
The scaling while in Workplane space appears still to be working to world space if lock active.(or 2 scaling curves are used, and one is zero scale)
I don't see the problem.
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I don't see the problem.
Try rotating the WP of world axis orientation before testing. (VWS attached)
(http://i.imgur.com/JBkPcPD.jpg)
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The other problems I mentioned now appear to be fixed. Thank you.
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Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Mar-30-14.rar
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Even if I ran into some glitches, they were no trouble to me (yet), just a little bit consufing and easily fixed. Now this tool is finally fun! I like how it works in conjunction with the new twist tangent tool. I can use it on the path curve to manually control the twist! Nice!
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Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Mar-30-14.rar
I am getting unpredictable results. At times, when the mesh/curves are created in session, the scaling appears to be in reverse (scales down instead of up). But on saving/re-loading[new session] the result can be correct for spline modify.
For "Slide" or "Slide > Tube" again, with scaling the results varied (could be correct at first, or a need to save/new session/reload, and on one test(after reload), the scaling was incorrect.
Here is the example for "Slide > Tube".
When I first created this in session, the tube scale was reversed (went smaller in the middle). When I reloaded into a new session, the scaling was incorrect.
Expected result as from Mar-15 build.
(http://i.imgur.com/TDWMo6k.jpg)
Result from Mar-30(new) Build (other builds with new scaling was similar incorrect result)
Scaling made from world X/Y (using/ not using path tangents was same result)
(http://i.imgur.com/sE0Yc5h.jpg)
By the way, it is now 7 April.
VWS attached
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On more checking of the above example, If I change to workplane space, then result is correct. On changing back to world space, again still OK.
Can you please check when you have time?
Thanks.
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That's odd. If I scale your scene up by the factor of 10, then everything works on my end.
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On loading the scene, if I change the orientation of the scale modifier curve (rotate it 90 deg around world 0,0,0 so it is now on Y/Z) then it is OK.
A bit too unpredictable for me at the moment.
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This is what I am seeing most of the time. (this is world space X/Y for scale modify curve)
Spline modify with scaling curve, incorrect.
(http://i.imgur.com/BJ7QKj1.jpg)
Save/re-load in new session. Now OK.
(http://i.imgur.com/4ic0n9L.jpg)
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There were bugs in the modify curve YX/YZ plane checking.
Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Mar-31-14.rar
Note: If the scaling controlling is different in Y/Z directions, align the workplane space to the tangent direction of the first point of the axis curve.
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That is looking very good.
Many thanks.
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I have been looking more at "Slide" with scale lock. The results are not as expected.
Example:-
I have a square profile I want to slide around a path. The square profile is set to path vertex normal.
(http://i.imgur.com/1xIsqKO.jpg)
I want to scale that profile in only one direction, So that I can maintain the width or height of the square.(what I was expecting)
I add the scale modify curve and lock to one axis.
(http://i.imgur.com/SPMeEm4.jpg)
The result shows that the profile as become skewed, rather than it keeping its 90 deg corners and only scaling in one direction of the profile.
(http://i.imgur.com/A4vub3T.jpg)
I get similar results with using path tangents or not.
[I have also tried changing the scale modify curve to the different planes and work spaces. But with similar results.]
Could you please check when you can find time.
Thanks.
VWS attached.
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On more checking.
I setup on workplane space, and kept it simple.
I have a square profile and 2 point spline to use for path/axis. With 3 point scale modify curve.
(http://i.imgur.com/nHikrwb.jpg)
If I "slide" the path first. Then as a second operation use "Spline modify" and add the "scale modify curve"(axis locked). The result is as expected.
(http://i.imgur.com/iKvcaqt.jpg)
However. If I slide with scale modify curve(axis locked), the result appears to be scaling to world axis.
(http://i.imgur.com/yme3pXk.jpg)
VWS attached
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"Lathe" also scales to world axis.
Unfortunately, the new scaling feature when locking axis, is of little use with "Slide" or "Lathe" in its current form.
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Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Apr-08-14.rar
For Slide, if scale differently in Y/Z, use workplane space which aligns to the tangent of the first point of the path curve.
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Hi IStonia,
The result from the example "b_0" now appears to be OK.
The result from the example "Slide_scale", that gives the same incorrect results. I changed to "Workplane Space"(aligned workplane to tangent of first vertex on path"). That gave 2 problems. The first was a problem again trying to create the scaling spline, it would not draw at times in orthographic view, it depended on zoom level of orthographic view(mainly "Advance view focus point on Orthographic view zooming" needed to be enabled.) The other problem was that the slide would not work at all while in workplane space for that example. I selected the profile, ran "Slide" selected the path, and nothing, did not create mesh(Slide > tube" also failed to work)
Using workplane space, I created several other 3d splines, "Slide" failed to create a mesh.(looks like the Path needs to be planer for it to work in workplane space).
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With a 3d path for slide, with workplane space, the paths pivot needs to be moved to start vertex, or the mesh appears to be created very small at path pivot location. But even with that, the scaling is still incorrect.
It also appears that when changing to workplane space, workplace 0,0,0 can still be at world space origin. A need to save/reload in new session to correct origin.
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try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Apr-09-14.rar
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Hi IStonia,
Slide + Scale modify
On quick tests.
It will now work, but there is limitation. The path start vertex must be at/aligned with "world space" or "Workplane space" origin(depending on which space working in). If not, when using scale modify with "axis lock" or 2 different scale modify curves will give incorrect results.
For example, the example file I posted "Slide_scale". That gives the same incorrect results. But if I move path start vertex to world origin/orientation(+ realign profile), then it will give correct results.
I am still seeing problems attempting to draw spine in ortho views in workplane space(that are not aligned to workplane) while "Advanced Focus Point on orthographic view" is disabled(and I change the ortho view by zooming.
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Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Apr-10-14.rar
I am still seeing problems attempting to draw spine in ortho views in workplane space(that are not aligned to workplane) while "Advanced Focus Point on orthographic view" is disabled(and I change the ortho view by zooming.
How can I reproduce it?
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Hi IStonia,
Try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Apr-10-14.rar
On first quick testing, that is looking good for slide with scaling. I will find some time later to make more testing.
How can I reproduce it?
Sorry I got distracted and now need to go out for a few hours.
I will post some steps to reproduce later.
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It seems, the move curve is applied after the scaling. Can that be switched? I want the scaling to stay in place, but change the distribution of the polygons along the path, so they "slide" over the scaled mesh. I don't know about the workflow of others, but for me it makes more sense.
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It seems, the move curve is applied after the scaling. Can that be switched?
They currently work together. What you are asking for, is for them to be applied in specific order seperatly, that would cause issues on functionality.
A very simple example.(would not work if changed)
Create a spring with compressed ends.
Use slide > twist > move
(http://i.imgur.com/Sd9p92x.jpg)
I want the scaling to stay in place, but change the distribution of the polygons along the path, so they "slide" over the scaled mesh. I don't know about the workflow of others, but for me it makes more sense.
That would kill a number of functions I have/would use "Move" for.
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Hi IStonis,
I am still seeing problems attempting to draw spine in ortho views in workplane space(that are not aligned to workplane) while "Advanced Focus Point on orthographic view" is disabled(and I change the ortho view by zooming.
How can I reproduce it?
I am seeing some other issues now.
In a new default scene, load the "Slide_scale_b" example I have attached. It should start in Workplane space, ortho view left.
Start spline tool. Move cursor over viewport(do not start the spline) and zoom in(keep zooming in). The cursor for spline start will disappear(you cannot draw spline), if you keep zooming in the grid will disappear. On zooming out the view as changed.
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It seems, the move curve is applied after the scaling. Can that be switched? I want the scaling to stay in place, but change the distribution of the polygons along the path, so they "slide" over the scaled mesh. I don't know about the workflow of others, but for me it makes more sense.
Never mind. I can do the sliding afterwards with the slide tools and soft selection enabled, I guess.
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I just noticed that the number of sections is off by 1. To get a quad for the profile I have to give it 3 sections. That's not intuitive and might lead to making mistakes.
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I just noticed that the number of sections is off by 1. To get a quad for the profile I have to give it 3 sections. That's not intuitive and might lead to making mistakes.
There are a couple of issues I can think of now.
For "slide -> tube" the segments for the radius is off by 2 (for a square, segments = 2)
For segments on the length. For open spline OK, but for closed spline it is off by 1 (it does not count the last segment)
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Hi IStonia,
"Spline -> Lathe"
Currently, that is using world axis/orientation rather that profile orientation for scaling.
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try this
http://www.digitalfossils.com/Download/NVil-Apr-11a-14.rar
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Hi IStonia,
Have made some quick tests on
"Slide", "Lathe" and "Spline Modify" with scale/scale lock on worldspace/workplane space, even with workplane space origin in some strange locations / orientations, to see outcome, and all OK.
Orthographic views on workplane space now appear to work as expected, without problems of change of view on zooming in/out.
So up to now, all looking very good.
I will spend some more time testing, just to see if I have missed any problems (and have some fun experimenting).
Many thanks for taking the time to implement this.